Whitebird

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dat5102dr
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Re: Whitebird

Post by dat5102dr » 27 Apr 2012 13:01

that makes me want to keep the L series engine on mine
it looks and sounds beautiful

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okayfine
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Re: Whitebird

Post by okayfine » 27 Apr 2012 13:20

It's actually quite noisy. L-series are just noisy, I know that, but added to that I have some (okay, more than some) transmission noises. Noises that shouldn't be there considering this trans is supposed to have been rebuilt with 0 miles. I have a receipt. I know work was done, I even had the bellhousing off and looked around. Whines in 5th, grumbles in reverse, with the clutch out in neutral there's a bearing buzz that, when you step on the clutch, the noise spins down. It doesn't stop (liked you'd expect if it was the T/O bearing and you disengaged the clutch), it spins down. Weird. It runs, for now, so I'll deal with that at the appropriate time.

I also dealt with the alternator issue by getting a rebuild internally-regulated alternator. Aside from having to craft a new adjuster bracket (alt. is a 720 pickup 50A unit, so is physically bigger than the one I had), it went on. More importantly, the CHG light goes out once the car starts, so success there.

Started it up this morning to give it some break-in miles and after idling for 10 seconds, the engine died. No amount of cranking and/or choke would start it up again.

That's odd.

Pulled the coil wire, get spark. Pull the fuel line, get fuel flow. Stick my finger in the carb bore. Smells of gas, but it's not wet. Hmm. Bit of a PITA to pull the float bowls from this setup, since they're attached by a top-mounted bracket. I pull the hoses from the bottoms of the bowls. Nada.

Well, there's yer problem!

So off come the float bowls. One did have a clog in the needle/seat. The other didn't. So I don't understand why neither had fuel in them...but at the same time I'm glad it happened while the car was in the garage and because if one would clog and the other would still flow fuel, I'd NEVER be able to troubleshoot that (if it caused a lean condition under load). Phew.

Cleared it out, put it all back together, went to get some gas. I have the timing dialed back to 28° static+mechanical for the moment, but even that's not enough to prevent pinging under any positive PSI. Which is strange, since it shouldn't ping that badly at 2psi. Engine's still breaking in, I probably have <50 miles on it. Took it for a brief drive then brought it back to do a valve check. Am thinking on filling half the tank with 100 octane and see how that does for pinging. If I still get pinging with that, I have other, more serious, issues.

Sorry Rob, no pics.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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bertvorgon
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Re: Whitebird

Post by bertvorgon » 28 Apr 2012 06:29

Morning Julian,

Good to see you are finally running. do you have an A/F gauge? Just curious as to how lean you may be?

Plugs too hot? How do they look? Is the engine up to temp when it starts to ping?

I know all you guys get for premium fuel is 91(?) You maybe on the edge with that as soon as you go to crossover. Your fuel test wood be good. Mine will ping on light throttle application, with our 94, the odd time I had to stick that in. Mind you my static compression is high, and my cam is not too crazy, so cylinder filling is very good.

I run about 12 to 15 degrees static advance ( no vacuum advance ) with a quick ramp up to about 32 total.( and for what it is worth, at 10PSI boost, it retards 12 degrees) Maybe your static timing is too high, and the tip in on the throttle leans it out some ( fuel dropout?)
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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okayfine
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Re: Whitebird

Post by okayfine » 28 Apr 2012 09:56

bertvorgon wrote:Good to see you are finally running. do you have an A/F gauge? Just curious as to how lean you may be?
I do, but it seems to be on the fritz. It did work during the initial run around the block, but I had the car out yesterday and it was either reading 7.9 or 22.4, which I take are the gauge min and maxes. This is an Innovate gauge. I'll need to check with them to see what the deal is. I have a friend who has an older model Innovate, so I can plug his gauge into my sensor to troubleshoot that. So, I have no real readings to share at this time.
bertvorgon wrote:Plugs too hot? How do they look? Is the engine up to temp when it starts to ping?
Haven't pulled the plugs. They are one step colder plugs (BP7ES, IIRC). Engine will ping cold or warm if going into boost.
bertvorgon wrote:I know all you guys get for premium fuel is 91(?) You maybe on the edge with that as soon as you go to crossover.
Engine is ~8.4:1 compression. I knew I'd have to have a fix for timing for this engine and CA's 91 octane. I drove it yesterday and put half a tank of 91 in, then half with 100 ($8.05, which wasn't as high as I was expecting). After that I could get up to about 5psi boost before pinging onset. I didn't push it there but once or twice since I don't have the WBO2 functioning, so no idea on fuel ratios at that point. Drove it home and stayed out of boost.
bertvorgon wrote:I run about 12 to 15 degrees static advance ( no vacuum advance ) with a quick ramp up to about 32 total.( and for what it is worth, at 10PSI boost, it retards 12 degrees) Maybe your static timing is too high, and the tip in on the throttle leans it out some ( fuel dropout?)
Static currently is 10° BTDC. Mechanical advance is limited to 18° crank. Would seem I need to pull a little more out from mechanical on boost.

I'm still figuring out boost-retard options. 510wizard is brewing up a fancy mechanical solution, which I'll post about when he's done. Have also thought about water injection. My preference is to avoid anything add-on that would leave me stranded if it died (i.e. MSD boxes that do anything beyond boost retard).
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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bertvorgon
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Re: Whitebird

Post by bertvorgon » 28 Apr 2012 18:30

I did the "blow" back on the vacuum canister, has worked very well for almost 30 years now, dead reliable...NO ELECTRONICS or transistors to go wrong.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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okayfine
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Re: Whitebird

Post by okayfine » 29 Apr 2012 08:55

Keith, do you have a post or posts somewhere showing what you did? Probably not, since The Realm (and computers, as we know them) weren't around then. I have Jason Gray's archived web page where he discusses it. Obviously still looking at options. Thanks!
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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bertvorgon
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Re: Whitebird

Post by bertvorgon » 30 Apr 2012 05:27

No I don't, as that goes back to the late 70's that we did that, just at the point that I started my LOG BOOKS. And even at that, there were so many things we tried/changed, that a lot of stuff did not get written down, as to specifics. I started my records in about 1977, with full on record when we built the existing car, 1978/79, after my 72' was written off.

I do remember some years ago, the Jason Grey thread, reading it and thinking that is kinda what we did. I know we softened up the springs, for a quick advance, and put a drop of weld in the advance plate, to limit total advance. I should re-read that again

As I needed very quick response ( to compete with the N/A guys ) I ran 17 degrees initial ( good gas of course) with the quick full advance. With the smaller turbine housing, lag was non-existent, to the point that I would only run 10 PSI boost to keep the car drivable at the slaloms.

I got totally put off by the MSD stuff when it first came out, as Andy had no end of problems with it, so I never jumped into the electronic stuff. Their boost retard module at the time, would fail, due to the small device that sensed boost, was actually not really built for the type of boost he/we ran. MSD could never tell us what the problem was, it was an electronic guru friend of Andy's that took one apart, pulled the suspect part off the board, and tracked down the actual data sheet on it, only to find out that is was totally NOT the right component for the task at hand. Remember when race cars had TWO msd's on the dash...there was a reason for that. I know they are better now, but that is why I stuck with my black box and Accel coil, which has not failed me in 30 years, lets me run to 8,000 RPM, yada, yada

Re the water/methanol injection...mine is only gravy, I am in the thought that you don't rely on that as a detonation preventor....I have no pumps, the tank is self pressurizing, and lineal with boost. As long as the solenoids trigger, things are simple.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

Three B's Racing
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Re: Whitebird

Post by Three B's Racing » 30 Apr 2012 05:40

bertvorgon wrote:I did the "blow" back on the vacuum canister, has worked very well for almost 30 years now, dead reliable...NO ELECTRONICS or transistors to go wrong.
Did the same thing on mine way back when and it did work great. But I also ran a water injection setup on a hobbs pressure switch set to spray at 5psi. It was a fine mist that worked great!!! then again I was running 8:1 compression. I mentioned the "Blow" back setup once, don't remember if I got a reply. The old HP book "How to Turbo Charge" has a great article on how to do this exactly. I have the book Jules and will dig it out tonight if you want.

Lou
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bertvorgon
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Re: Whitebird

Post by bertvorgon » 30 Apr 2012 07:04

I have these very cool "FOG" nozzles, that make such a fine mist, they are just great. They come in a variety of sizes, so you can fine tune the spray.

ThreeB's, I use two Hobbs switches, low and high, that trigger two gas solenoids, likely same us what you did. I just check that the solenoids have not dried out over the winter, and on I go.

I used to cruise the plant stores, WAAYYY BACK, to find the nice brass plant sprayers, they worked great also, and I still use one for my HIGH setting, so when I am full kill, it is like a small garden hose with the spray, it triggers at about 12 psi. I spray right that the compressor wheel, and have NEVER had a problem in 37 years. I think that anypone that had wear issues, did NOT have a spray that made really fine droplets, or "mist".

we even use these nozzles for brake cooling.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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okayfine
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Re: Whitebird

Post by okayfine » 30 Apr 2012 08:18

Keith, you're pressurizing your nozzles via boost pressure?
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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bertvorgon
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Re: Whitebird

Post by bertvorgon » 30 Apr 2012 15:51

Here is what I do, to be specific:

I have a small tank in the trunk, about 1 gallon. As you can see in the photo, a line goes in the top, an AIR line from my air box. Out the bottom of course goes the water/methanol feed line. In the engine compartment, below the inter-cooler on the frame rail, are TWO gas solenoids...controlled by TWO Hobbs switches under the passenger side dash....which have ANOTHER air line going to them, from the air box.

So..as air pressure rises in the air box, the pressure is building in the tank, and, when the first Hobbs switch sees 8-10 PSI, it triggers the "LOW" pressure solenoid, which is mounted a few inches away from the compressor inlet. Then, as the air pressure has built even more, depending on the drivers excitement, and throttle position, the second Hobbs switch triggers the second solenoid, at about 12-14 PSI. These then stay on till I have killed the BWW/PORSCHE/INFINITY/MUSTANG/RICE ROCKET, or...run out of road or revs.

They never see manifold boost, but, the small difference in pressure differential from the box to boost is miniscule enough, and of course I am not blowing fuel laden vapour into the tank.

And, as soon as I lift, pressure drops, or totally dumps if I go above 16" of vacuum, which is what I have my compressor bypass set at. The flow of course is somewhat lineal, as the tank pressure increases, flow then goes up through the fog/spray nozzles. At 16 PSI it is amazing at how much fluid is being sent to the turbo, through those two nozzles.

I use airlines that trucks use for brakes, for all my air/waste gate lines.

I basically looked at Ak Millar's system he did in the Crown Turbocharger book, !st edition, page 120 -121, and made it better and multi- staged.

I HAVE A COMPLETE FLOW DIAGRAM FOR MY WHOLE SYSTEM..I'm just waiting for my cheque for $20,000.00 from 68 Wagon,.........it only took me 20 years of development......
Attachments
IMG_3725_800x600.jpg
THE CENTER FITTING IS THE MAIN FEED IN, WITH THE LOW AND HIGH EXITING AT THE ENDS OF THE DISTRIBUTION ASSEMBLY
IMG_3725_800x600.jpg (56.71 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
the Works!_800x600.jpg
COMPRESSOR INLET PIPE, SHOWING NOZZLE PLACEMENT.
the Works!_800x600.jpg (60.57 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
IMG_3732_800x600.jpg
IMG_3732_800x600.jpg (51.1 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
Last edited by bertvorgon on 30 Apr 2012 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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bertvorgon
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Re: Whitebird

Post by bertvorgon » 30 Apr 2012 16:02

The Hobbs switches and methanol tank
Attachments
IMG_0086.JPG
THESE SWITCHES LET ME TURN OFF THE SYSTEM, ISOLATE ONE, OR THE OTHER, THEY LIGHT UP WHEN TRIGGERED, SO I CAN SEE THEY ARE FUNCTIONING.
IMG_0086.JPG (105.59 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
battery well.JPG
methanol tank to the right, aux fuel the large tank
battery well.JPG (112.5 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
IMG_0092.JPG
HOBBS SWITCHES, THE WASHER TANK IS FOR THE INTER-COOLER SPRAY
IMG_0092.JPG (123.56 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

Rheis
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Re: Whitebird

Post by Rheis » 01 May 2012 14:26

Sorry to but in guys, Keith the msd isnt required? Do you have a rev limiter? please do tell more because I was looking at one MSD 6-BTM part #6462.
okayfine wrote: I'm still figuring out boost-retard options. 510wizard is brewing up a fancy mechanical solution, which I'll post about when he's done. Have also thought about water injection. My preference is to avoid anything add-on that would leave me stranded if it died (i.e. MSD boxes that do anything beyond boost retard).
I dont want to be stranded either :D another option I thought is because I have James old msd boost retard is that i should just buy a 6al and have 2 separate units instead of the both in one (MSD 6-BTM) that way its easier to get in a pinch since I enjoy taking the car on trips

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Re: Whitebird

Post by okayfine » 01 May 2012 14:58

MSD has a unit that will wire in to Nissan EI (510rob posted the part number in a thread I started in the Engine forum), and they have combined units like the 6-BTM. MSD also has a box for Miatas that just drops timing a set amount on boost and is $150, but only works with the Miata, apparently.

I will pursue the T valve angle and see how that works.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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bertvorgon
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Re: Whitebird

Post by bertvorgon » 01 May 2012 17:01

Rev limiter...what's that?
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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