The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up.

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McShagger510
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by McShagger510 » 15 Oct 2012 22:24

Way to go, can't keep a good man down. :mrgreen:

James
The person with the sun in their eyes has the right of way. - my brother

'72 2dr. 510 Turbo
'73 240Z all stock
'71 2dr. 510 stock......for now
'91 Nissan truck
'78 Kawasaki Z1-R
'84 Kawasaki GPZ750 Turbo
'99 Kawasaki ZRX1100

510rob
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by 510rob » 15 Oct 2012 22:34

McShagger510 wrote:Way to go, can't keep a good man down. :mrgreen:

James
irony --> that metal sensor disk was originally slated for your engine, many moons ago. :shock:

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Byron510
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by Byron510 » 15 Oct 2012 22:51

510rob wrote:
McShagger510 wrote:Way to go, can't keep a good man down. :mrgreen:

James
irony --> that metal sensor disk was originally slated for your engine, many moons ago. :shock:

Well, I guess I have to thank myself for making Rob a second disc. Then James I have to thank you for somehow not using it - likely at Rob discretion or a change in how you wanted to build your set up. Then I have to thank Rob for remembering the disc was around and giving back to me... seems like some hippy communal speed equipment help line or something :lol:

Byron
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by Byron510 » 20 Oct 2012 16:59

I have spent the day on the Bronze again, and I feel I'm going around in circles a bit.

I started yesterday by adding the TDC timing mark to the trigger ring – nicely filed on in, and then set the Magnet Timing this morning. Now keep in mind that this is the ECU timing, which then determines the ignition timing with whatever timing curve you wish to set based on 250 RPM increments. It also has a boost retard function, but there is no need to get into this sine I’m not turbo’d… yet!
Test drive and result - HUGE DRTONATION!
Of idle, low RPM, Hi RPM, through all load levels. Thinking this can’t be right, I remove the rad again; pull of the front pulley and start checking my measurements again. I did find an error, I had set the magnets to the sense trigger and not the timing trigger magnets – there are teo systems on the trigger ring, and they are opposite polarity from one another. It turns out to be a 4 degree error. At this diameter that’s about 5/16” spacing difference and it was too far advanced. Now the SDS allows for up to 30 degrees of adjustment here, but since I had the whole works out , I figured I would correct the error and make it right.

I put it all back together, set it with the timing light and go for a drive… similar result; detonation. A bit better, but not a big enough step.

Now I’m at a loss. I went back and checked the TDC mark again - #1 plug out, dial indicator down the hole – it all checks out here. Again I check the reference point for the trigger magnet, it’s correct as is the spacing for the magnets…. Now I’m just scratching my head.

If I run the car timed correctly, the performance feels about right at light load – but I can’t lay into it due to horrible detonation. So knowing that the mechanical side is correct, I have to second guess that what I had previously may not have been correct. One thing I did not want to do is start messing with the settings. It ran fine before, with the mechanical part replaced with one in the same, it should be right again. But being in this situation, I start taking timing out of the timing curve. I go for a drive and start dialing back the timing at 250 RPM intervals in 5 degree steps. It didn’t seem to make much difference. I ended up setting no curve at all, dialing the timing back to 0 from 500 RPM right up. Detonation did disappear from the point of lightly rolling on the throttle and very light steady cruise. But any more, and it’s detonation city all over.

Now for kicks, I start dialing back the Magnet Timing – it’s just a set point parameter. While driving down the road, I need to take 20 degrees out of the time to make 90% of the detonation go away. If all else is correct, that would but the ignition timing at 20 ATDC! I’m surprised it runs there. But there is no power, obviously this isn’t right.

What did come to mind is the possibility of shit GAS. Since I was at a ¼ tank, I filled it up. No change in the car. What I can’t remember is if I last filled up at this same station. So to rule this out, I need to drain the whole take, and get another load of premium plus at a different station. This may be tomorrows task. However I’m being honest with myself, it’s highly unlikely that it’s the fuel…

Any thoughts out there?


Shown in the photos below are;

-the corrected magnet positions – I filled the old holes with epoxy to help keep it clean and for balance purposes – it won’t be right but it’ll help.

-a shot of the back side of the pulley with all the markings – just before getting put back on the second time

-the front side of the pulley – I needed to drill though from the front to remove the magnet locations which were 4 degrees out – these holes are filled with epoxy.

Byron
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bertvorgon
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by bertvorgon » 21 Oct 2012 07:59

:wink: :wink: :wink:

...only option.....
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"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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McShagger510
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by McShagger510 » 21 Oct 2012 10:51

bertvorgon wrote::wink: :wink: :wink:

...only option.....
BOOOOOOOOOOOO!
The person with the sun in their eyes has the right of way. - my brother

'72 2dr. 510 Turbo
'73 240Z all stock
'71 2dr. 510 stock......for now
'91 Nissan truck
'78 Kawasaki Z1-R
'84 Kawasaki GPZ750 Turbo
'99 Kawasaki ZRX1100

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bertvorgon
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by bertvorgon » 21 Oct 2012 11:00

Said the guy who's car gives HUGE backfires occasionally......to the point Matt and I thought you blew up.... :lol:
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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McShagger510
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by McShagger510 » 21 Oct 2012 22:05

Thats my ..... EFI TURBO CANNON!!
The person with the sun in their eyes has the right of way. - my brother

'72 2dr. 510 Turbo
'73 240Z all stock
'71 2dr. 510 stock......for now
'91 Nissan truck
'78 Kawasaki Z1-R
'84 Kawasaki GPZ750 Turbo
'99 Kawasaki ZRX1100

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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by 510rob » 21 Oct 2012 22:24

that was a short-circuit across the flux capacitor and luckily the accumulator was only up to 1.19 jigawatts

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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by Byron510 » 21 Oct 2012 23:10

Thanks for your thoughts Keith, but I'm certainly not goping back now! :lol:

Carby cars have their place – and I have loved most of mine, but what I can achieve with EFI is far greater and with greater precision. Tuning certainly takes less time compared to jets, modifying distributor weights ect,ect,ect. And this all involves vastly more time, and usually involves other peoples schedules which is also a PITA.
Nothing is infallible – I fully understand this. Fortunately this failure had nothing to do with electronics, it had everything to do with me engineering in a failure. Obviously this idea of mine was not good, and had I followed the recommendation of the manufacturer who suggested I put the magnets in the pulley, well I wouldn’t have be here - two strikes against me trying to be fancy, and I out did myself...

And while I'm eating humble pie, I found the problem - or more specifically as I was staring at the part, having removed the rad for the 3rd time during this “repair”, my shop mate took a stab in the dark, and was spot on... :oops: I'll get to that in a second.

So today I had two avenues of attack;
1)The possible bad gas issue which I felt wasn't likely, but I had to rule it out.
2)Physically verify the timing with a degree wheel - A simple tool that I've always borrowed and made work somehow - usually to poor effect. So it was time to cure this once and for all.

For the first point, obtain new fuel, jack up car, drain fuel – and managed to contain 99.5 % of it. Install new fuel… no change. Damn! So much for those couple hour’s of time.

Next, physically check and validate timing. For this I drove to out local parts store, obtained a degree wheel and came out with a mounting method which would also allow me to crank the motor over. The result is shown below. First, I’ll show a shot of the proximity of the front pulley to the rad – not a lot of room. About a year ago, I shortened a 27mm socket and welded a larger nut to it to facilitate turning the motor over without the removal of the rad. That “custom” tool came in handy, and you’ll see how I utilized it for this degree wheel.
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by Byron510 » 21 Oct 2012 23:19

Old pulley bolt is removed, modified pulley bolt with threaded rod is inserted, socket with 22mm nut welded on is placed over threaded rod and engaged on pulley bolt – pulley bolt torque down.
Now a fender washer was placed against the middle pair of 6mm nuts which were locked against each other to prevent moving on threaded rod, the timing wheel was placed on threaded rod with washers on outer end and gently snugged down. I found #1 TDC with a dial indicator (1” travel dial with a minimum 1” extension is necessary) and finally secure the timing plate. I used the ever popular piece of coat hanger secured to a front pulley bolt as a marker. I now have my degree wheel in place, and as you can see, I can use an open end wrench on the hex nut welded to the socket to rotate the engine in a controlled fashion.
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by Byron510 » 21 Oct 2012 23:29

Finally after all this was in place, I could run through the check in two minutes. The ECU was telling me that it saw the sync magnet at 180 degrees, and the trigger magnets at 135 degrees before TDC and 45 degrees after TDC… nowhere neat the necessary points. SDS called for the sync at 120 degrees BTDC and the triggers at 80 BTDC and 100 degrees ATDC…
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by Byron510 » 21 Oct 2012 23:39

What I can’t figure out is how did the car run at all? The timing was a full 60 degrees advanced!

At any rate, it was obvious that something was wrong my degree wheel had proved it.
I removed the pulley, looked at my lay out of the magnets – spacing was prefect, looked at my TDC pulley mark, confirmed the distance from the TDC pulley mark to the magnet pick up – it was right….
Then…
You ever tried working with mirrors? Yep – you want to go this way, but you went the wrong way naturally... my layout was perfect, but I set the magnet TDC in the wrong direction as my start point in reference to my TDC timing mark… and it took my shop mate to just throw that idea out there for me to recognize that this was the issue. Sometimes staring at something just isn’t good enough.
So with this revelation, I set out once again drilling out the old magnets, and gluing in new ones… feeling a bit dull, but at least happy I’d found the issue.

Included are photos of my layout drawing, and demonstrating my 60 degree error.

So after taking about a minute to program my timing curve back in, and waiting for the epoxy to set up in the rather cold shop. I set to work reassembling the car and double checking the timing points. I all lined up, and I finished putting the car back together.

Verdict – the car works awesome again, much better than my interpretation and transposing of directions to the backside of the trigger ring. I’ll be happy to take part in Oktoberfast, and get the car through the emissions test before putting it away for the winter.

And as bonus, I now have a proper degree wheel set up for future motor projects. I’ll still likely replace the pickup/sensor. The damage that was done to it has left the sensors exposed to the elements, and a connector which I could see was just nicked. Hopefully I can get this within the next week.
But it sure felt good to lay into the throttle again. Another thing I learned was that I may not have been running as much timing as I could have been - this I'll also research in the coming future.

Byron
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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by bertvorgon » 22 Oct 2012 05:34

All kidding aside, glad you found the problem, nothing like scratching your head, when you think nothing has changed!

Made me remember the bloody head scratching we did when they took the lead out of the gasoline...talk about pinging and head scratching.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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Re: The Bronze - '69er Resto Project and continuing build-up

Post by 510wizard » 22 Oct 2012 08:21

Byron,
A quick question, did you do the drilling for the magnets on a rotary table? If so you could have degreed the timing pulley so you wouldn't need the timing wheel.

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