Swapping Struts side to side?
Swapping Struts side to side?
Anyone have a good reason why I can't do this? Everything else seems the same, just the caliper is leading instead of trailing.
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Driver-Gravelspec Rallysport Datsun #510
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Re: Swapping Struts side to side?
ZX were/are flipped side-for-side often to get around the worn-pad/steering-arm conundrum.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson
Re: Swapping Struts side to side?
So no problems then? I was thinking of this for the brakes and bump steer adjustment room.
Driver-Gravelspec Rallysport Datsun #510
www.facebook.com/gravelspec
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Re: Swapping Struts side to side?
No problems. If you have bumpsteer spacers, you don't need to flip 'em for the clearance issue.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson
Re: Swapping Struts side to side?
I've run all of my 510's with ZX struts flipped, placing the calipers at the front - no issues at all.
Byron
Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.
because the opposite never works.
Re: Swapping Struts side to side?
It seems that a disproportionately large amount of cars mount the brakes behind the hub. Is there any reason for this? There's got to be something? I'm just curious if anybody had any idea.
- bertvorgon
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Re: Swapping Struts side to side?
From an engineering quote: Not me
What effect on wheel loading does the positioning of the calipers in a leading or trailing location have – i.e. mounted at 3 and 9 o'clock positions? Does a trailing caliper add or subtract load on the front tires? In a rear independent suspension, does a leading caliper add or subtract wheel loading, and is it the same in a live axle situation?
The short answer is no. Caliper location has no effect whatsoever on wheel loading. Having the caliper's mass lower or higher does have a very minute effect, because it affects the CG location a tiny bit, but there is no difference between a 3 o'clock mounting position and a 9 o'clock position.
However, there is an effect on bearing loads. It might seem counter intuitive that we can change the bearing loads and not change the tire loads, but that is in fact the case. As the questioner appears to have considered, the disc tries to carry the caliper upward if the caliper is trailing, and downward if the caliper is leading. That reduces bearing loads if the caliper is trailing, and increases bearing loads if the caliper is leading. However, these forces are reacted entirely within the hub/bearing/spindle/upright/caliper/disc/hat assembly, and do not change the loads on other parts of the car.
We can think of it like this: Gravity acts downward on the car, with additions and subtractions due to inertia effects and aerodynamic effects. The road surface holds the car up. Or, we may say the road holds the tire up; the tire holds the wheel up; the wheel holds the hub up; the hub holds the bearings up; the bearings hold the spindle up; the spindle holds the upright up; the upright holds the suspension up; the suspension holds the sprung mass up. If the caliper exerts an upward force on the upright and a downward force on the disc, that just means the brake is helping the bearings and spindle hold the upright up. It doesn't change the total support force, only the load path within some of the unsprung components.
It is worth noting that in braking there are also horizontal forces acting through the wheel bearings. The car is trying to keep going forward at a constant speed. The road surface is exerting a rearward force on the car, through the tires, wheels, hubs, bearings, spindles, uprights, and suspension. We can
reduce the bearing loads due to this component if we mount the caliper below center, or increase the bearing loads if we mount the caliper above center. In fact, the horizontal force may be greater than the vertical force on the tire. With racing slicks on dry pavement, the horizontal force may be 1.3 or more times as great as the vertical load on the tire. So for least bearing loads during braking, the caliper should be somewhere in the upper rear quadrant – around 5 o'clock or 7 o'clock, depending on which wheel we're looking at, and from what direction.
Now, do we actually want maximum cancellation of the bearing loads by the brakes? We might suppose so, but actually there is an argument for not having maximum cancellation. The effective radius of the brake (roughly the radius to the middle of the pad) is often less than half of the tire effective radius. This means that the force at the caliper is more than twice the rearward force at the tire contact patch, and it may also exceed the vector sum of the vertical and horizontal forces at the contact patch. Consequently, the caliper force may not only reduce the bearing loads, but reverse them. If there is any free play in the bearings, or deflection in the components, this load reversal may result in a vibration or a small variation in the steer angle of the wheel. So there is a case for building the components nice and strong, and positioning the calipers so the bearing loads will not reverse.
Of course, as a practical matter, if we are using purchased calipers we need to mount them with the bleed screws at the top, or very nearly so, just to facilitate good brake bleeding without requiring the calipers to be dismounted. This may well outweigh any theoretical considerations. If we are designing from a blank sheet of paper, we don't face this constraint, but most of us, most of the time, are designing around purchased calipers.
Another practical constraint is packaging, particularly of the steering arms and cooling ducts.
There are some ways in which we can affect wheel loads by the design of the brake system and the suspension. I am referring here to the longitudinal "anti" or "pro" effects: anti-dive or pro-dive in the front suspension, anti-lift or pro-lift at the rear. With independent suspension, it makes a difference to these effects whether the brakes are inboard or outboard. With a beam axle, it makes a difference if the calipers are mounted directly to the axle, or on birdcages or floaters that rotate on the axle and have their own linkages.
However, with all of these, we cannot significantly alter the loading on the front or rear wheel pair, nor on all four wheels. We can change the way the sprung mass moves in response to braking, and this may have small effects on CG height, with corresponding small effects on overall load transfer. But the big effects come from having geometry differences on the right and left sides of the car. These may be present even in supposedly symmetrical road racing cars, because no car stays symmetrical when it rolls. In oval track cars, we often design in, or adjust in, asymmetry even in the static condition. Such asymmetry can produce significant changes in diagonal percentage when braking, and we can use these to tune corner entry behavior.
All such effects are independent of the "clock" position of the caliper mount.
What effect on wheel loading does the positioning of the calipers in a leading or trailing location have – i.e. mounted at 3 and 9 o'clock positions? Does a trailing caliper add or subtract load on the front tires? In a rear independent suspension, does a leading caliper add or subtract wheel loading, and is it the same in a live axle situation?
The short answer is no. Caliper location has no effect whatsoever on wheel loading. Having the caliper's mass lower or higher does have a very minute effect, because it affects the CG location a tiny bit, but there is no difference between a 3 o'clock mounting position and a 9 o'clock position.
However, there is an effect on bearing loads. It might seem counter intuitive that we can change the bearing loads and not change the tire loads, but that is in fact the case. As the questioner appears to have considered, the disc tries to carry the caliper upward if the caliper is trailing, and downward if the caliper is leading. That reduces bearing loads if the caliper is trailing, and increases bearing loads if the caliper is leading. However, these forces are reacted entirely within the hub/bearing/spindle/upright/caliper/disc/hat assembly, and do not change the loads on other parts of the car.
We can think of it like this: Gravity acts downward on the car, with additions and subtractions due to inertia effects and aerodynamic effects. The road surface holds the car up. Or, we may say the road holds the tire up; the tire holds the wheel up; the wheel holds the hub up; the hub holds the bearings up; the bearings hold the spindle up; the spindle holds the upright up; the upright holds the suspension up; the suspension holds the sprung mass up. If the caliper exerts an upward force on the upright and a downward force on the disc, that just means the brake is helping the bearings and spindle hold the upright up. It doesn't change the total support force, only the load path within some of the unsprung components.
It is worth noting that in braking there are also horizontal forces acting through the wheel bearings. The car is trying to keep going forward at a constant speed. The road surface is exerting a rearward force on the car, through the tires, wheels, hubs, bearings, spindles, uprights, and suspension. We can
reduce the bearing loads due to this component if we mount the caliper below center, or increase the bearing loads if we mount the caliper above center. In fact, the horizontal force may be greater than the vertical force on the tire. With racing slicks on dry pavement, the horizontal force may be 1.3 or more times as great as the vertical load on the tire. So for least bearing loads during braking, the caliper should be somewhere in the upper rear quadrant – around 5 o'clock or 7 o'clock, depending on which wheel we're looking at, and from what direction.
Now, do we actually want maximum cancellation of the bearing loads by the brakes? We might suppose so, but actually there is an argument for not having maximum cancellation. The effective radius of the brake (roughly the radius to the middle of the pad) is often less than half of the tire effective radius. This means that the force at the caliper is more than twice the rearward force at the tire contact patch, and it may also exceed the vector sum of the vertical and horizontal forces at the contact patch. Consequently, the caliper force may not only reduce the bearing loads, but reverse them. If there is any free play in the bearings, or deflection in the components, this load reversal may result in a vibration or a small variation in the steer angle of the wheel. So there is a case for building the components nice and strong, and positioning the calipers so the bearing loads will not reverse.
Of course, as a practical matter, if we are using purchased calipers we need to mount them with the bleed screws at the top, or very nearly so, just to facilitate good brake bleeding without requiring the calipers to be dismounted. This may well outweigh any theoretical considerations. If we are designing from a blank sheet of paper, we don't face this constraint, but most of us, most of the time, are designing around purchased calipers.
Another practical constraint is packaging, particularly of the steering arms and cooling ducts.
There are some ways in which we can affect wheel loads by the design of the brake system and the suspension. I am referring here to the longitudinal "anti" or "pro" effects: anti-dive or pro-dive in the front suspension, anti-lift or pro-lift at the rear. With independent suspension, it makes a difference to these effects whether the brakes are inboard or outboard. With a beam axle, it makes a difference if the calipers are mounted directly to the axle, or on birdcages or floaters that rotate on the axle and have their own linkages.
However, with all of these, we cannot significantly alter the loading on the front or rear wheel pair, nor on all four wheels. We can change the way the sprung mass moves in response to braking, and this may have small effects on CG height, with corresponding small effects on overall load transfer. But the big effects come from having geometry differences on the right and left sides of the car. These may be present even in supposedly symmetrical road racing cars, because no car stays symmetrical when it rolls. In oval track cars, we often design in, or adjust in, asymmetry even in the static condition. Such asymmetry can produce significant changes in diagonal percentage when braking, and we can use these to tune corner entry behavior.
All such effects are independent of the "clock" position of the caliper mount.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan
Keith Law
1973 2 Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer
Keith Law
1973 2 Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer