Suspension Sanity Check

Suspension, including wheel, tire and brake.
Button
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Suspension Sanity Check

Postby Button » 23 Jul 2014 22:23

Hey guys, before I start purchasing parts I wanted to see if I could get some input on my suspension plans. I have a 71 2dr. I plan on putting on 15x7 +12 wheels with 195/50/15s. This will not be my daily driver. I am looking at handling and performance above all else and plan to use the car for autoX, track days, and spirited canyon driving. I do not want to spend money for the sake of spending money but I would like to do things right when I redo all of the suspension and steering. I have read the suspension thread multiple times and have read through numerous other threads. I will also continue to research here on my own but I would love to get some input and sanity check from you all.

Front Suspension,Steering, and Brakes:
510 Struts (Do I need to shorten? I have searched a bit but I'm still not clear when its necessary to shorten the strut)
Offset camber Plates from DP racing
Front Coilovers - 300lbs (I'm thinking T3)
Tokico 5 way MR2 Inserts? - I'm still not sure what to do for inserts, any other favorites?
Swaybar - not sure what size and who to purchase from any thoughts?
Willwood Brakes from DP racing
New Tie rods - Moog, or is worth getting a steering kit like T3 sells? https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/510/ ... datsun-510
Front Control Arm Bushing Kit - Moog or a spherical bearing kit like DP Racing sells? http://dpracing.co/510_FrontSuspension.html

Not Sure:
Bumpsteer/Knuckle Risers - I would like the car to be fairly low so I am assuming I will need these.
Adjustable Lower Control Arms? - I'm assuming I do not need these since I will be using camber plates. Is my logic correct?
Adjustable Tension Control Arms? - Do I need these? Should I get these?
Idler arm bushing kit?
New ball joints? Moog?
Any other bushings or parts that I am overlooking?

Rear Suspension and Brakes:
Rear Coilovers - 300lbs - I was looking at Ground Control but is it best to match these with the front?
Ermish Rear Camber Kit or Pentultimate setup?
Polyurethane Crossmember Bushings
Aluminum finned ZX drums - porterfield pads

Thanks.

Chris

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okayfine
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby okayfine » 24 Jul 2014 07:58

Button wrote:I am looking at handling and performance above all else and plan to use the car for autoX, track days, and spirited canyon driving.


With this as your goal, I'd strongly suggest the ZX strut/brake upgrade for the following reasons:
-Big enough brakes for your needs
-Available parts when needed
-Larger selection of strut inserts
-Cheaper by far than your proposed brake upgrade
-Perhaps most crucial - larger wheel bearings. You're going to subject your car to use it was never conceived of when designed, and modern tires and big brakes really put the hurt on stock 510 wheel bearings. Not a huge issue, but maintenance and replacement schedules will increase dramatically.

Button wrote:510 Struts (Do I need to shorten? I have searched a bit but I'm still not clear when its necessary to shorten the strut)


Necessary when you want/need to install a strut insert that is shorter than the strut housing is designed for. Typically when you want to lower the car dramatically yet still retain some bump travel.

Button wrote:Front Coilovers - 300lbs (I'm thinking T3)


Might want to search DIY Coilovers here on The Realm. 99% of people with coilovers set their car's ride height once and forget it. So why the expense of fancy threaded collars and such if you're never going to adjust them again?

Button wrote:New Tie rods - Moog, or is worth getting a steering kit like T3 sells? https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/510/ ... datsun-510
Front Control Arm Bushing Kit - Moog or a spherical bearing kit like DP Racing sells? http://dpracing.co/510_FrontSuspension.html


Might as well go heim joints - removes compliance. Given the car's goals, I figure that's a given. Also, heims allow increased caster without binding (an issue with increased caster and poly LCA bushings). Dave at futofab.com also has some suspension bits to look at (including a BBK).

Button wrote:Rear Coilovers - 300lbs - I was looking at Ground Control but is it best to match these with the front?


Coilovers themselves are essentially dumb, in that it's just about spring rate so different parts to get there front-to-rear don't have an impact.

Button wrote:Ermish Rear Camber Kit or Pentultimate setup?


I'm not that familiar with Troy's solution. The Penultimate allows for poly rear lower control arm bushings, and it also raises the rear arms 1" or so from stock, which helps with geometry changes over travel on a lowered car.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

datzenmike
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby datzenmike » 24 Jul 2014 19:25

Have you driven a 510 (or any other) with 300 lb/in spring rate??? I must be getting old but I'm running 150 in my 710 (about 50% increase in spring rate) and while it greatly improves the handling, can't imagine driving with double that. Maybe work your way up to what works for you rather than starting at the top first?
"Nissan 'shit the bed' when they made these, plain and simple." McShagger510 on flattop SUs

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bertvorgon
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby bertvorgon » 24 Jul 2014 19:54

Yes, 300# springs are stiffer for sure, but, the main issue is the shock, what is the valving like, that becomes the main problem on our 510's. I wish I could take a lot of people for a ride in my car, where the shock valving is CORRECT for the spring rate.

I wish all the gang that make after market strut packages actually spec'ed a shock properly for these spring rates.

That being said, if you run softer springs and want as best handling as possible, in terms of roll control, you will have to run as large a front anti roll bar as possible, as it is all about controlling the amount of body roll. which then dictates the tire contact issue, and, the be all and end all, weight transfer.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

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1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
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Button
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby Button » 24 Jul 2014 20:39

Wow - thanks Julian - you are the man. I appreciate the input. I have looked around a bit for getting ZX struts and haven't had much luck. Where are people getting theirs? Ebay? Craigslist? Pick N Pulls?

To be honest Mike I never have ridden in a car with that stiff of spring rate. I was taking an estimated guess on spring rate based on reading here and especially seeing what some of the Canadian contingent are running. You bring up a good point in that perhaps I should start softer, say 200#, and go stiffer if necessary since springs are not terribly expensive in the grand scheme of things.

Bert, how do you properly gauge how to correctly valve or adjust a shock to match spring rate? I'm sure this could be a lengthy answer, but are there good available shock matches for 200 and 300 pound springs?

Chris

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bertvorgon
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby bertvorgon » 25 Jul 2014 05:40

That becomes the problem. I have Bilstien in the front of mine, which we had custom valved, to almost 50/50 bump/rebound.

This is where it is hard to say what is out there, as most shock companies do not specify what their rate is.

I had good success in my Toyota GTS with 300# springs up front, and Tokico Illumina 5 way adjustable shocks. At number 5 setting the car felt almost like the 510.

Don't forget, that while a car's suspension may feel firm at normal speeds, what happens as the speeds go up is a whole different ball game. It just depends on what YOU feel you want the car to be.

Re-read the suspension/handling thread, and then ask yourself, how do I really drive...MOST of the time.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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okayfine
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby okayfine » 25 Jul 2014 07:09

Button wrote:Wow - thanks Julian - you are the man. I appreciate the input. I have looked around a bit for getting ZX struts and haven't had much luck. Where are people getting theirs? Ebay? Craigslist? Pick N Pulls?


Here on The Realm for the most part, and on eBay occasionally. They pop up here relatively often. The Santa Paula PnP might have the odd ZX now and again, but they're mostly 90's+ era cars (have been since the last Cars for Clunkers), so it is rare to have a late-70s ZX show up. You could also check out car-parts.com, which is an online aggregation of junkyards nationwide. Not always easy to search, but shipping isn't too bad sometimes. And you keep your hands clean...
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

Button
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby Button » 25 Jul 2014 12:59

Thank you for the feedback guys.

That's a good point Bert about how I will drive most of the time - which will probably be 80% street use. I guess the good thing is that nothing is permanent, I can make an educated decision about where to go and tweak along the way.

Chris

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bertvorgon
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby bertvorgon » 25 Jul 2014 16:43

Wise decision!

One of the biggest things you can simply do is buy GOOD, if not GREAT tires. Even on a fundamental suspension, good tires can just make the toss in's that much more fun, as grip is where it is at.

I won a very important sanctioned race one year in my wife's bone stock 70's 510, with the latest Pirelli tires from my race 510 on it.

If you learn to drive that well, with competency, the rest will be gravy down the road. You learn that the key to driving fast is being SMOOOOOTH. When you learn to stay within, but AT the limit of what you have, then when you do get some serious suspension, that natural ability to be at the limit, with safety, will already be there.

Put on a good sized front anti roll bar, and you will be amazed at just what that can do.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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JordanTr
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby JordanTr » 25 Jul 2014 17:49

I will put up a post here soon once I get out from under my car... I was in your shoes not long ago and hopefully can give you something useful. :)
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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okayfine
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby okayfine » 28 Jul 2014 09:08

ZX stuff:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=27185

Gotta pay shipping, don't gotta get dirty.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby JordanTr » 29 Jul 2014 22:26

Button wrote:Hey guys, before I start purchasing parts I wanted to see if I could get some input on my suspension plans. I have a 71 2dr. I plan on putting on 15x7 +12 wheels with 195/50/15s. This will not be my daily driver. I am looking at handling and performance above all else and plan to use the car for autoX, track days, and spirited canyon driving. I do not want to spend money for the sake of spending money but I would like to do things right when I redo all of the suspension and steering. I have read the suspension thread multiple times and have read through numerous other threads. I will also continue to research here on my own but I would love to get some input and sanity check from you all.

Front Suspension,Steering, and Brakes:
510 Struts (Do I need to shorten? I have searched a bit but I'm still not clear when its necessary to shorten the strut)
Offset camber Plates from DP racing
Front Coilovers - 300lbs (I'm thinking T3)
Tokico 5 way MR2 Inserts? - I'm still not sure what to do for inserts, any other favorites?
Swaybar - not sure what size and who to purchase from any thoughts?
Willwood Brakes from DP racing
New Tie rods - Moog, or is worth getting a steering kit like T3 sells? https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/510/ ... datsun-510
Front Control Arm Bushing Kit - Moog or a spherical bearing kit like DP Racing sells? http://dpracing.co/510_FrontSuspension.html


I would go with Okayfine and recommend zx struts for all his listed reasons. Your rims of choice listed will fit better on those as well. I would shorten the struts and use the Illumina BZ3099 inserts (mr2 app). Myself and others such as e510 and proflex have had good success with them.
250-300# springs sound good based on what you've described.
1"-1.125" sway bar.
Stock zx brakes in good working order with good pads would be good. Spend the wilwood $$ elsewhere.
Personally, I would go with OEM tie rods such as Moog. They are tried and true.

Button wrote:Not Sure:
Bumpsteer/Knuckle Risers - I would like the car to be fairly low so I am assuming I will need these.
Adjustable Lower Control Arms? - I'm assuming I do not need these since I will be using camber plates. Is my logic correct?
Adjustable Tension Control Arms? - Do I need these? Should I get these?
Idler arm bushing kit?
New ball joints? Moog?
Any other bushings or parts that I am overlooking?


It sounds like you'll be running decently low. I would go for the biggest roll center adusters you can fit. I'm limited to 1.25" (from T3) based on my 2 sets of rims (15/16).
You probably don't need adjustable LCAs to start with but if you want lots of caster (4*+) you need a spherical joint on the LCA otherwise the stock rubber binds up. Also if you want the rim fitment just perfect, adjustable LCAs are great.
Adjustable TC rods are awesome. They allow you to pull in some caster which makes the 510 a whole new beast. I'm running T3 ones and they're pretty great.
Idler arm bushings and Moog ball joints sound good.

Button wrote:Rear Suspension and Brakes:
Rear Coilovers - 300lbs - I was looking at Ground Control but is it best to match these with the front?
Ermish Rear Camber Kit or Pentultimate setup?
Polyurethane Crossmember Bushings
Aluminum finned ZX drums - porterfield pads



Separate coil and spring like OK said is good to get you started if you're budgeting but adjustable coils are nice.
Byron's brackets are great for rear adjustment and are a much simpler setup than penultimate.
Stock rear xmember bushings are probably still ok. I'm still running originals without issues.
Rear brakes sound simple and good.

Hopefully this and a skim through the suspension setups thread will help you out.

Good luck!
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby Sleepys-14 » 30 Jul 2014 06:51

Everything looks good in that list except for the rear brakes. If you plan on doing any sort of track days, I would rec. rear disc. Inconsistant brakes are one of the most frustrating thing at track days. The worst!
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bertvorgon
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby bertvorgon » 30 Jul 2014 07:04

I second the rear disc need. Before I put my rear discs on, my car would last maybe 15-20 minutes, out of a 25 minute session, before EVERYTHING was nuclear.
With the rear discs on, AND front cooling ducts, I had no issues after that.

Besides that, rear drums will "bell mouth" when they get extremely hot, which then becomes a pedal travel and feel issue, feels like crap is what it does. The worst were the 240Z aluminum drums, I pitched those and went back to the steel drums, before I did the rear disc conversion.

Obviously the track type will dictate any cool down time, before next braking zone, and, how powerful your car is.

Personally, if I was to track my car again, I would finish my water spray cooling for the fronts also.

Go for the 1 1/8" front bar, you will not regret it for track and solo use.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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Dave Patten
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Re: Suspension Sanity Check

Postby Dave Patten » 30 Jul 2014 12:53

Chris,
FutoFab can help you out with a number of different pieces.

We have adjustable TC & LCA packages. We stock Byron's rear camber/toe brackets. We are an official Tokico dealer with 280ZX Illumina fronts inserts (BZ3038) in stock and access to all the Tokico HP & Illumina products in their US warehouse.

We have 1.125" front 510 bars in both stock and front sump configuration coming available in mid August. These are our own private label brand "Orange Line" made thru a partnership with one of the US's largest sway bar manufacturers.

We also have billet aluminum rear brake brackets that adapt the 82-83 280ZX rear calipers and rotors to the 510, a perfect match when upgrading your front brakes to 280ZX. We also offer a 4 piston caliper big brake kit w/12.19 x .810 rotors for the front. These will fit your stock 510 strut.

Many of the items above are new additions to FutoFab's growing line of products that have not yet made it to our website. Feel free to ask here or contact me directly with any questions.
Dave Patten
http://www.FutoFab.com
Dunbarton, NH


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