Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Suspension, including wheel, tire and brake.
ca18det_boy
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Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby ca18det_boy » 06 Jul 2017 12:38

Just ordered all the stuff to get in and fab up all of the steel lines in the dime. I'll be adding a proportioning valve along with this set up. I'm thinking about routing the lines on the inside of the firewall to try and keep things clean in the bay. For anyone that has replaced all the steel lines before, does anyone have any valuable lessons they'd like to pass on?

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zKars
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Re: Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby zKars » 06 Jul 2017 14:11

My advice is primarily not to use steel lines. The newer Copper/Nickle alloy lines are better, softer and easier to work with. May be too late for you now if you've ordered.

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Byron510
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Re: Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby Byron510 » 06 Jul 2017 16:44

zKars wrote:My advice is primarily not to use steel lines. The newer Copper/Nickle alloy lines are better, softer and easier to work with. May be too late for you now if you've ordered.


15 years ago I did all the hard lines in the Bronze with stainless 316L - fuel and brake lines.

But I knew that playing with stainless required good tools, I'd done some work in the shipyard with the navy hydraulic stuff (sonar/weapons and the like), and then at Westport with HP gas injection - I was blessed with having access to some pretty cool equipment in my youth at both jobs. So I purchased a 37 deg JIC Rigid flaring tool which forms (does not just press) the pipe into the flare shape and I bought a proper bending tool for 3/16" (Brake) and 3/8" (fuel) lines. If I look back in the Bronze thread, I think I did 48 flares in total - all JIC for break and fuel lines, only 2 leaked and required a second reforming.

I think the discussion in my thread starts about here;

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=530&start=90

I too did not want my lines visible - check out the routing to get the lines from the under dash mounted M/C's to the front struts. Also everything to the rear of the car is inside the cabin as to not get hit from underneath. The fuel lines through the cabin have no fittings from bulkhead to bulkhead (other than the bulkhead fittings themselves). The last thing I ever wanted was a fuel fitting coming loose in the cabin! Even though the car was carburated at the time I built it, I plumbed in the return line for the EFI and capped it off - just in case. Well 3 years later I did use that EFI return line.

Also note that JIC and -AN fittings use the same geometry and threads and are interchangeable.

Maybe some ideas in there for you. But as Jim noted, there is easier stuff out there to work with today.

Byron
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because the opposite never works.

ca18det_boy
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Joined: 10 May 2017 13:49

Re: Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby ca18det_boy » 07 Jul 2017 09:30

zKars wrote:My advice is primarily not to use steel lines. The newer Copper/Nickle alloy lines are better, softer and easier to work with. May be too late for you now if you've ordered.


Those were the ones that I bought and I also bought the JEGS tool for super tight bends. Only bad thing is that the tool won't ship until the 27th allegedly. I'm really looking forward to messing with this new line though. I've done some steel lines in the past, they worked...but I wasn't super happy about how the turned out. I'm hoping this new stuff will be just what the doctor ordered.

Byron510 wrote:
zKars wrote:My advice is primarily not to use steel lines. The newer Copper/Nickle alloy lines are better, softer and easier to work with. May be too late for you now if you've ordered.


15 years ago I did all the hard lines in the Bronze with stainless 316L - fuel and brake lines.

But I knew that playing with stainless required good tools, I'd done some work in the shipyard with the navy hydraulic stuff (sonar/weapons and the like), and then at Westport with HP gas injection - I was blessed with having access to some pretty cool equipment in my youth at both jobs. So I purchased a 37 deg JIC Rigid flaring tool which forms (does not just press) the pipe into the flare shape and I bought a proper bending tool for 3/16" (Brake) and 3/8" (fuel) lines. If I look back in the Bronze thread, I think I did 48 flares in total - all JIC for break and fuel lines, only 2 leaked and required a second reforming.

I think the discussion in my thread starts about here;

http://the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 0&start=90

I too did not want my lines visible - check out the routing to get the lines from the under dash mounted M/C's to the front struts. Also everything to the rear of the car is inside the cabin as to not get hit from underneath. The fuel lines through the cabin have no fittings from bulkhead to bulkhead (other than the bulkhead fittings themselves). The last thing I ever wanted was a fuel fitting coming loose in the cabin! Even though the car was carburated at the time I built it, I plumbed in the return line for the EFI and capped it off - just in case. Well 3 years later I did use that EFI return line.

Also note that JIC and -AN fittings use the same geometry and threads and are interchangeable.

Maybe some ideas in there for you. But as Jim noted, there is easier stuff out there to work with today.

Byron


C'mon Byron you didn't want fuel flooding the cockpit!?! Haha. Your lines turned out AMAZING!! That's essentially what I'm going for, but I'm not running a pedal box. How much trial and error was there to get them looking that good? You never had an issue with the lines running forward and aft? Someone accidentally stepping on the lines or something heavy dinging them? As it sits now, I'm planning on running them from the master straight back. Then once they're in the cabin I'll be running alongside the firewall. My line of thinking is that the dash will hide everything and they'll be up and out of the way. The rear lines will poke through at the forward part of the trans tunnel, but ultimately run on the belly of the trans tunnel to the back. Doing it that way will allow me to put the proportioning valve in the cabin so I could potentially make adjustments on the fly (track days and what not).

Did the JIC flaring tool make the difference for you? With the softer material I was just going to use my cheapo autozone flaring tool.

The fuel lines are currently ran from the previous owner. I'm not too concerned with them for now because eventually I'll be switching to a full AN set up for the turbo KA. I really like the idea of running them through the cabin with bulkhead fittings. I think I might have to borrow that idea if it's not copyrighted ;).

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zKars
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Re: Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby zKars » 07 Jul 2017 16:55

I'm chatting with another Z buddy over on Classiczcar about the high cost of these copper nickle lines. We found a couple of options. Thestopshop.com has great deals, and Canadian Tire of all places stocks the common sizes in 25ft rolls too at a decent price.

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Byron510
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Re: Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby Byron510 » 10 Jul 2017 00:01

ca18det_boy wrote:
zKars wrote:My advice is primarily not to use steel lines. The newer Copper/Nickle alloy lines are better, softer and easier to work with. May be too late for you now if you've ordered.


Those were the ones that I bought and I also bought the JEGS tool for super tight bends. Only bad thing is that the tool won't ship until the 27th allegedly. I'm really looking forward to messing with this new line though. I've done some steel lines in the past, they worked...but I wasn't super happy about how the turned out. I'm hoping this new stuff will be just what the doctor ordered.

Byron510 wrote:
zKars wrote:My advice is primarily not to use steel lines. The newer Copper/Nickle alloy lines are better, softer and easier to work with. May be too late for you now if you've ordered.


15 years ago I did all the hard lines in the Bronze with stainless 316L - fuel and brake lines.

But I knew that playing with stainless required good tools, I'd done some work in the shipyard with the navy hydraulic stuff (sonar/weapons and the like), and then at Westport with HP gas injection - I was blessed with having access to some pretty cool equipment in my youth at both jobs. So I purchased a 37 deg JIC Rigid flaring tool which forms (does not just press) the pipe into the flare shape and I bought a proper bending tool for 3/16" (Brake) and 3/8" (fuel) lines. If I look back in the Bronze thread, I think I did 48 flares in total - all JIC for break and fuel lines, only 2 leaked and required a second reforming.

I think the discussion in my thread starts about here;

http://the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 0&start=90

I too did not want my lines visible - check out the routing to get the lines from the under dash mounted M/C's to the front struts. Also everything to the rear of the car is inside the cabin as to not get hit from underneath. The fuel lines through the cabin have no fittings from bulkhead to bulkhead (other than the bulkhead fittings themselves). The last thing I ever wanted was a fuel fitting coming loose in the cabin! Even though the car was carburated at the time I built it, I plumbed in the return line for the EFI and capped it off - just in case. Well 3 years later I did use that EFI return line.

Also note that JIC and -AN fittings use the same geometry and threads and are interchangeable.

Maybe some ideas in there for you. But as Jim noted, there is easier stuff out there to work with today.

Byron


C'mon Byron you didn't want fuel flooding the cockpit!?! Haha. Your lines turned out AMAZING!! That's essentially what I'm going for, but I'm not running a pedal box. How much trial and error was there to get them looking that good? You never had an issue with the lines running forward and aft? Someone accidentally stepping on the lines or something heavy dinging them? As it sits now, I'm planning on running them from the master straight back. Then once they're in the cabin I'll be running alongside the firewall. My line of thinking is that the dash will hide everything and they'll be up and out of the way. The rear lines will poke through at the forward part of the trans tunnel, but ultimately run on the belly of the trans tunnel to the back. Doing it that way will allow me to put the proportioning valve in the cabin so I could potentially make adjustments on the fly (track days and what not).

Did the JIC flaring tool make the difference for you? With the softer material I was just going to use my cheapo autozone flaring tool.

The fuel lines are currently ran from the previous owner. I'm not too concerned with them for now because eventually I'll be switching to a full AN set up for the turbo KA. I really like the idea of running them through the cabin with bulkhead fittings. I think I might have to borrow that idea if it's not copyrighted ;).


I can't speak for the flaring tool that you've bought, but admittedly you'll have a much easier time successfully flaring softer materials.

But running the lines through the cockpit is a good idea I feel, most cars made in the last 25 years are built this way from the factory for the same reason I located them inside, it's safer. The only difference is that OEM lines generally terminate through grommets and we'll outside of the cabin. But I do have faith in the bulkhead fittings.

As for your question regarding damaging the lines, the stainless is so tough that short of dropping some large, sharp and heavy object on them, you'd have a tough time damaging the 316L lines. This is why they are used in industrial applications. The. I carpeted over them which offers more protection. If your using a softer material, do be a little more mindful of the placement of the lines as they be more easily damaged.

As for you question of ease of fitment, I didn't find it that bad at all bending around the various obstacles and making parallel lines. If your tools are good, repeatable bends can be made. The first few will have a bit of a learning curve like anything new, but you'll soon get the hang of it. Buy a little extra and start with the short runs. I've bent a few pieces of tubing for cages in my time, so I guess the process just carries over to this little stuff.

Post up if you have any questions, love to see the progress.

Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.

ca18det_boy
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Joined: 10 May 2017 13:49

Re: Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby ca18det_boy » 10 Jul 2017 08:59

I'll post some pictures once I get all of my stuff in. Thus far I've only received the proportioning valve and my 2 boxes of fittings. Still waiting on the tubing bender and the line. I ordered 25ft of the stuff, so I think I'll have enough to make some mistakes haha.

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zKars
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Re: Replacing those old dirty...umm missing lines?

Postby zKars » 10 Jul 2017 12:25

Some Z buddies on another forum just got a fantastic deal for Copper Nickle lines from thestopshop.com. He bought two roles of 3/16, 1 of 1/4, 2 of 5/16 and it was $200 CDN! Shipped from a Canadian warehouse, no duty and fast shipping. He called them direct and got better pricing than even their web store. They have lots of brake related items too. This is THE place to shop for brake bits and line.


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