Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

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gooned
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by gooned » 08 Sep 2018 20:47

Kimberly should be a nice upgrade from the last stop!

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Byron510
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by Byron510 » 09 Sep 2018 06:39

Great write up Jordan. Playing with unbalance is a really interesting learning curve.
I see you have (had?) access to a Schenck machine with a Cab 720 head unit, this is the Cadillac off balance machines, a really quality machine, and what is in all of our newer ABB turbo shops. The machine I had here in Vancouver was a Cab 690, which didn’t have a many neat bits of software, which forced you as a user to “know more”.

Of course I was balancing turbines, so tolerances of less than 1g/mm were common. At that level, the effect of induced heat from you hands while holding the rotor before placing it on the machine can easily seen. Also friction from the roller bearings and the drive belt are a running concern.

We always used two balancing planes, it just simply far more accurate as you noted.Two things I learned over my years of balancing rotors is the we used couple imbalance at any time that the balancing planes come close together. Like many of our axial turbines, the 2 balancing planes were very close together. Just like your flywheel, couple imballance mathematically calculates where the individual Ballance planes will rotate to, and it is a setting on the 720. My 690 didn’t have this, so you had to lean to visualize it, or do the math on paper - which there often wasn’t time for. The cool thing about couple imballance is that you will remove less material from the rotor while archiving the same balance tolerance, and this is the primary reason why we would employ this method. Our turbine shafts are worth a ridiculous amount of money.

Anyways, great read - thanks for your thoughts. One book we kept around for guys wanting to read was a copy of the Fundamentals of Ballancing, it looked like it was printed in the 40’s, but it could have been much newer. Like the materials you had access to, those fundamentals don’t change, the technology and software does however.

And good luck on your new job, what will you be doing in the Kootenies? And now we have another destination in the BC interior to shoot for, that’s cool.

Byron
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because the opposite never works.

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JordanTr
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by JordanTr » 21 Oct 2018 20:40

Hey Byron,

I definitely lost track of this post amid all the moving etc.

Yes, I had access to a Shenck balancing machine with a technician (union problems! lol). I sure do miss it, there isn't one at the new mill.

I would LOVE to have a balancing machine for home use. Imagine how smooth a car would drive with wheels balanced to G1!

Thanks. The new job is similar to before; it's a Reliability Engineer at a Kraft pulp mill. Hopefully I'll be on my feet with somewhere to do car stuff next year. It's all I can do right now to keep bikes and skis indoors in our small rental in Kimberley.

With Golddust sold, I'm hoping I can throw some wrench time back into the 510 and re-do the exhaust and intake and generally clean up a lot of the high school level work.
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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icehouse
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by icehouse » 22 Oct 2018 08:24

BOOOOOOOSSSSTTTTTTT!!!!!! WWWWWWSSSSSHHHHHH!!!!! Lately I've driven two different turbo KA 510's, and a SR turbo car. Damn they make my car feel so so so so so slow. Although my car drives way nicer :) The SR was 300 to the wheels and the KA was 350. fun times!
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

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JordanTr
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by JordanTr » 22 Oct 2018 08:35

Hahaha I know. There’s only so much time in the day!
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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JordanTr
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by JordanTr » 04 Nov 2018 10:11

Still waiting for some shop time but I'll leave it right here for now. :wink:

Any guesses what's in the box?

Image
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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bertvorgon
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by bertvorgon » 04 Nov 2018 11:09

Turbo grind camshaft(s) ?
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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JordanTr
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by JordanTr » 04 Nov 2018 18:30

bertvorgon wrote:
04 Nov 2018 11:09
Turbo grind camshaft(s) ?
Not yet Keith but hopefully I'll be on that road in the near future! I'm making plans for boost. What duration are you running on your car?

There are lots of stock options on the twin cam KAs.

S13 ('91-'94) used a 240/248 intake/exhaust cam setup
S14 ('95-'98) used a 232/232 setup for more lower end torque. Rev limiter on S14s dropped accordingly down to 6500 from 6900 on the S13 KA.

With the S14 KA long block in the car, I will almost certainly be looking to a cam swap in the future. I have 2x 240s, 2x248s and 2x232s in the car so I can conjure up something for sure! It all depends on how the turbo setup breathes. I would like a nice flat torque curve.

256, 264, and 272 cams are also available for the KA but cams are quite low on the priority list at the point.

To answer the question... In the box is a RHD Ford Escort manual steering rack for the Jeff/JBC rack conversion. 2.9 turns lock to lock in the box which results in ~2.4 turns lock to lock when used with the JBC steering arms!
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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JordanTr
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Forced Induction!

Post by JordanTr » 18 Nov 2018 20:56

After many years of dreaming/wishing etc, I am on the road to turbocharging the Datsun!

I'm going to go KA-T much like Matt and others but I will be blazing my own trail a little. With Jeff's rack conversion, I'm banking on being able to bottom mount a T3 frame turbo with a short tubular manifold (Spriso/Eric Straw style).

My goal is 250-275rwhp and a fat torque curve (thanks KA!).

Lots of RB25 owners are in the range of 190-220rwkw (240-288rwhp) when tuned with a FMIC, Nistune, upsized injectors, and a free flowing 3” exhaust with boost pressures from 9-12psi. With slightly less displacement on the 2.4L KA, I think my goals are reasonable. I will also run meth injection as a safeguard to keep the stock pistons happy and allow a little more reliability at this power level. I’m hoping to achieve my goals with 8-10 psi which is a bit optimistic.

Turbocharger

I've decided to go with an OEM Nissan turbo (are you surprised?!).
I've got a turbocharger from an RB25DET Neo which was their last generation. This came in the R34 Nissan Skyline GTT.
Compared to its predecessors, it uses a nylon compressor wheel that reduces the mass of the compressor by about half. The turbine is ceramic so it also attempts to minimize the mass of the rotating assembly. The CHRA is ball bearing and the OP6 turbine side has an A/R of ~0.6.
This turbo is a little larger than an S15 SR20DET T28 turbo and a bit smaller than the classic KA-T choice Garrett T3/T04E 50 trim journal bearing turbo that is efficient up to 46lb/min or about 420 whp. I think I only need just over 40 lb/min to achieve my goals.

Earlier RB25 turbochargers (R33 RB25DET series 1 and 2) utilized a smaller turbine side (21U) that was also shared with the RB20DET. The 21U turbine side is rumored to have an A/R of ~0.5. I plan to use this smaller 21U turbine side in iteration 1 to improve spool and driveability. If it proves to be too restrictive, I can go up to the OP6 hot side.
All RB20/25 turbochargers are internally wastegated so it makes packaging a little easier. They are also oil and water-cooled.

Manifold

I’ve purchased a T2 flanged, bottom mount turbo manifold from eBay. I know it’ll probably suck but I can’t afford the shop time to build one at this point. I will tear off the T2 flange and weld a T3 flange in its place after some massaging, fitting etc. In the future I can build a jig and build my own manifold to take its place.

Injectors

A lot of new cars are running the venerable Bosch EV14. Ricer fanboyz have been spending big money on Injector Dynamics ID1000s or ID2000s etc. for high horsepower builds. Luckily some OEMs have been using Bosch EV14 injectors in flow rates sufficient for a thrifty ricer like myself. Ford Mustang GT500 injectors offer ~550cc injectors for about $150 USD brand new! These injectors feature great atomization and a dual cone spray pattern to feed fuel directly into each valve on a 4 valve head. At 350 bhp, these injectors would be run up to ~75% duty cycle.
Unfortunately the EV14s are top feed meaning I need a whole new fuel rail to support this mod. Radium Engineering offers a top feed fuel rail and nice adaptor to retain the stock FPR. Take the money saved on injectors and spend it on a fuel rail!

Fuel Pump

Not decided as of yet but ideally R32/33/34 GTR or MK4 supra etc. I have a Walbro I snagged at PNP but I have to double check the flow on it.

Front Mount Intercooler

This is still up in the air but an OEM intercooler that appears to offer reasonable fitment is a Mitsubishi EVO 5/6/7 intercooler. The core dimensions are very close to the Datsport intercooler but obviously the usual fitment tweaks would be required. The EVO core jumps up in dimensions on the EVO 7 core. Sizing is (~294x470x65-70mm).

Engine Management

I’ve purchased an S13 SR20 ECU with the Nistune real time tuning daughterboard already installed. With some mild repinning, the S13 KA24DE harness I have can be utilized once wiring is added for coil on plug ignition. The KA24DE CAS disc in the distributor is also replaced with an SR20 CAS disc and the dizzy clocked a couple teeth one-way to compensate. ICPs should help with tuning timing and providing a very hot spark precisely when needed.
I think I will run the GM LQ9 D585 truck coilpacks (heat sink on top) to start with since I have the spares to use now thanks to the Golddust project. I believe I will be seeking out R35GTR coilpacks in the future. Obviously appropriate mods to the valve cover would be required.

With Nistune, a newer and more robust hot wire MAF sensor design can be adopted. I will be running an R35 GTR slot style MAF sensor as well. You just weld a MAF adaptor into an appropriately sized pipe and you can measure a certain mass flow of air. Nistune has reliably measured 444rwhp in a 3” tube so it is more than plenty for me. I thought about scaling down to 2.75” piping which yields ~373whp (by scaling by area ratio) and thus better resolution on the sensor but I cannot find a 2.75” SS MAF adapter anywhere so 3” it is. Nistuners haven’t had issues running at these power levels in 3” tubing so I’ll go with that.
The slot style MAF releases the air out the side of it, which makes it very good when there is reversion from transient turbo conditions. Z32 and other old style MAFs go really haywire during these conditions.

With stock type management, a recirculated BOV is necessary and I have a spare BNR32 BOV and O ring sealed flange to use for just this purpose.

Exhaust

I’ll be running a 3” SS exhaust with a resonator and muffler. I hope to divorce the wastegate and main piping for a few inches at least but that will be determined by the packaging once installed.

Drivetrain

The only drivetrain changes happening will be the precision balanced white bunny plus clutch/flywheel setup.

Rack

Along with the rack, I will be replacing the 510 engine mounts with stock S14 rubber isolators. The trans will get a new crossmember to accommodate the new engine placement and the install of a Nismo trans mount. With the 2 S14s, I’ve found that the Nismo trans mount helps keep the driveline happy and in alignment during cornering while the stock hardness engine isolators reduce the NVH.

Random other mods

I will be relocating the driver side heater hose to the passenger side so I can squeeze the engine further rearward to accommodate the intercooler and move the fans to the back side of the radiator.

I will be modifying the rear crossmember again to give exhaust clearance UNDERNEATH the crossmember. This will allow cleaner routing under/around the rear CV.

More to come! Hopefully with progress!
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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icehouse
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by icehouse » 19 Nov 2018 08:56

Yeah!!!!! The STI injectors are plug and play, also 550's and are half the price of the ford injectors. At least down here.

That Nylon compressor wheel doesn't like to be overboosted from what I've read. Sam almost got one for his SR20VET build.
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

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bertvorgon
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by bertvorgon » 19 Nov 2018 09:07

NICE!

I was ( still am) impressed with Matt's KA ( now Jason's). I could see the torque when we headed up the Duffy Lake on one of our drives, the steep climb from Lillooet Lake. Really seemed like a broad band in that motor.

Just seemed like a good way to go without having a high RPM motor.

I'm sure you are aware of how corrosive methanol is so chose wisely your components.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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JordanTr
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by JordanTr » 19 Nov 2018 17:35

icehouse wrote:
19 Nov 2018 08:56
Yeah!!!!! The STI injectors are plug and play, also 550's and are half the price of the ford injectors. At least down here.

That Nylon compressor wheel doesn't like to be overboosted from what I've read. Sam almost got one for his SR20VET build.
Ya I could get the STI side feeds but after you get them cleaned and serviced etc, they cost quite a bit for 25 year old technology. I’d rather invest marginally more and get current and state of the art tech.

Yeah everyone whines and complains about ceramic turbines and plastic compressor wheels but they fulfill the functional requirements of 10-12 psi much better than inconel/steel turbines and aluminum compressor wheels. They won’t handle 16+ psi but that’s just fine because I don’t need them to. I’ll take my spoil and transient response. It’s all in the functional requirements! :wink:

Yes Keith, I’ve been in Matt’s car a time or 2 and it is very impressive! I will run the car with the stock S14 KA cams and if it’s too much of a stump puller I can play with the OP6 hot side and/or the S13 cams or hot swap cams.
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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bertvorgon
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by bertvorgon » 19 Nov 2018 18:50

The engineer that developed my original kit..often said...it is the FIRST 5 - 10 PSI that gets the job done..the rest is gravy.

Stay away from detonation in all aspects of throttle use and you will be just fine, never mess with that. My latest engine is now heading into is it's 17th year of use and you know what it has been through, 5th gear pulls to red line up steep mountain hills and beyond.

I have resisted turning that little black knob up...just a bit....as I never know what might be lurking with another 2 psi boost....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by JasonLee » 19 Nov 2018 19:27

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Hi Jordan,

I am the fellow who bought Matt's KA turbo, and I am also in the process of installing the JBC rack and pinion conversion. Matt installed the KA with a modified S13 bracket and 510 isolators on the stock (flipped) crossmember. I figured that this would be a good time to switch over to the stock S13 isolators. Wrong! As this would have resulted in my motor sitting a full 25mm taller than it sits now. I have exactly enough clearance at the right side rack mount to clear the oil pan (just under 1/8"). I am happy to have the lower centre of gravity with the lower motor. I took the JBC S13 motor mount that was sent to me only stitched together, pulled the top off, and added 3/4" thick steel plate to exact angle to match the 510 isolator and strengthened S13 bracket. Way more compact setup for a lower engine position if you can tolerate the slightly (?) less sophisticated isolator. Good luck with the build.
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Jason

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JordanTr
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Re: Jordan's '72 2 door KA project

Post by JordanTr » 19 Nov 2018 20:26

Hey Jason.

Congrats on the car! I take it you haven't driven the car with the rack yet? Which steering rack isolators did you end up using?

Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures and write up. I'm planning to get only the lasercut mount bits (DIY kit) from Jeff so I know I'll be in for some customization. I think my engine will be headed lower much like yours since I've struggled with driveline alignment because the nose sits up too high on account of the classic 510 isolators on KA upper mounts. I've just never had the drive to get the last degree of alignment by completely redoing the engine mounts but now I have a good excuse to get in there!
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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