Noobie's 510 project

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DADZSUN
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Noobie's 510 project

Postby DADZSUN » 09 Apr 2012 16:40

I've been meaning to document the work on my 510 since first getting the car back in August http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=19050.

Now some 6 months later, it's fun to read back on that first post and see just how ambitious I was and if the feelings are still there. While I haven't been very active on this forum, or any forum for that matter, I am quite happy to say that progress has been quite steady. As for emotional attachment, I'm surprised to say that I'm even more stoked about this car.

Before I dive into what exactly I did, I will first say that there is more rust than I originally expected, but not as much as I feared. The front fiberglass fenders should have been a clue... :wink: Regardless, it appears as though all of it is quite manageable and I have zero regrets purchasing this car. In fact, I'm still amazed at how easily all the bolts/nuts are come off.

Copying my original post (italics):

Short term plan
- Replace the interior with a new carpet, headliner, seat covers (where/who?) and door panels (where/who?). This is a MUST to get my wife to actually tollerate a ride.
- Remove the Cherry bomb side exit exhaust for a vanilla MagnaFlow-type rear exit.
- New rubber door/window seals.
- Touch-up paint.
- Drive it and enjoy it until she's parked this winter.


Done:
- Interior is almost completely replaced - future post in this thread.
- Standard muffler was installed, I wouldn't mind a resonator to further quiet her down.
- New seals where required (front and rear windshields, side window felt and inner seal).
- LOTS of touch-up paint has been applied! :lol:
- I probably put 1500km on her throughout the Fall and enjoyed every minute of it.


Medium term plan - over the winter
- Rear disc conversion.
- 5 speed swap.
- Mount the potential Peanut head from the seized motor onto the fresh L20B with racing cam and Webber 40 carbs. Don't know if that will work yet, or if that's even a good combination. Personally I'm surprised/happy with the L16's mid range torque, I'm assuming I'll be very pleased with the L20B and hot parts.
- Swap the Ground Control suspension over from the parts car.
- Work on any rust that I can find.
- Design & install a Class 2 receiver for my bike hitch (I only use 2" bike hitches). Nothing will be cooler than using my 510 to haul my bikes to a trail ride.
- Drive it and enjoy it.


Done:
- Front and rear disc conversion to a full 280zx setup. Master brake cylinder, front and rear calipers, front struts, ebrake cable.
- There was no Ground Control on the parts car, nor a Peanut head. In fact the only useful part (and that has yet to be determined) is the 5sp tranny which has yet to be installed.
- Front and rear suspension was replaced - a future post
- Hitch is not yet done but am hoping to tackle it in May. I've got some ideas which will make it a true Hidden Hitch
- Because I was so pleased with the 1.6L, I've decided to shelve plans for the 2L and have since sold the Webers/Cannon. I wanted to try something a little different AND run Japanese carbs. As a result, I've installed Yamaha R1 (Mikuni) carbs, it's not done but the car fires up and idles nice. I will repost here but I jumped the gun and contributed to thread of the same topic on Ratsun (http://community.ratsun.net/topic/7862-r1-carbs-lots-of-pics/page__st__120)


Besides that, the other substantial item I've added are new wheels, 14x7 Watanabes on 195/60/14 tires, GAWD I love how she looks now. :D

My goal on this thread is to provide info from a newbie's perspective so that it can be of use for others down the road. It's not just the how to understand and work on the Datsun (which I'm still quite green), but the lessons I've learned in working on a classic (patience... LOTS of patience).

So for now I'll provide a before and after shot while I slowly organise my pictures and notes and post on specific jobs.
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Last edited by DADZSUN on 09 Apr 2012 16:50, edited 2 times in total.
'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby okayfine » 09 Apr 2012 16:47

DADZSUN wrote:14x7 Watanabes on 195/60/14 tires,


Excellent choice! :twisted:

DADZSUN wrote:My goal on this thread is to provide info from a newbie's perspective so that it can be of use for others down the road. It's not just the how to understand and work on the Datsun (which I'm still quite green), but the lessons I've learned in working on a classic (patience... LOTS of patience).


Always interested in this POV. I tried to get there with the DQ Reader's Project series, showing how a finished car came together. Never really was what I hoped it would be, so I look forward to your posts.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby DADZSUN » 18 Apr 2012 07:51

Yamaha R1 (Mikuni) carb conversion

While this was one of the later projects of the year, I've already posted a lot of detail on a related Ratsun thread so I figure I'd copy a lot of this over while it's still fresh in my mind.

Despite having two sets of Weber DCOE 45 carbs and Cannon manifold come with my car, I had several reasons for trying this project:
    - I wanted to stick to all Japanese if possible
    - I've read about some issues of the Webers staying in synch
    - As a carb noobie when I looked up the details of Weber and how it worked, I got overwhelming quickly. The R1 carbs were pretty simple to take apart and clean. The following link offers a really simple breakdown of the CV carb.
    - The R1 carbs benefited from at least another decade of development. It's been said that CV technology allows for SU-like fuel efficiency with Weber-like power.

So how easy was it? I literally dismantled and clean the carbs - add 1.6mm (Weber DGV) jets, hooked up the manifold (new gasket), turn the idle misture 3 3/4 turns out, car started right away, sych the carbs (maybe 2 minutes with the STE Synchrometer) and done!

To answer a few questions:
    - 1.6mm jets replaced the stock jets. This size is for a stock 1.6L engine (1.8mm recommended as a starting point for the L20B). There are more tuning options to richen the mix if required (adjusting the needle circlip) and even drill out the jet some more. These jets are apparently the same as Weber DGV jets
    - If interested in getting a manifold yourself, the man you want to contact is Steve Bogg, located in England (boggbrothersltd@btconnect.com). He's pretty good about replying to his email. I've sent an OEM manifold to him and he's made a jig for additional future builds. He also still has the original manifold.
    - Manifold cost is £200, jets are £10 for 4, shipping to me in Canada was expensive £60. Their airfilter is £100 and the carb cable kit is £10 I believe (I don't have either but would like to eventually).
    - I got my carbs for a little over $100 USD. Try to get the 'joins' (connector hoses) and clamps with your purchase. You'll need them.

Right now the car runs well, certainly MUCH better than the tired OEM carbs. Throttle response is very good off-idle, very good mid-range etc... There's no dieseling when turned off which is also very nice. I haven't driven the car enough yet to determine any change in fuel efficiency.

Here's a quick clip of the throttle linkage I modified to run the carbs. Note that I added a secondary spring to keep the throttle tight since the carbs spring isn't quite strong enough.

There's still a few items which need to be addressed.
    - I still don't have a choke cable running into the cabin.
    - I need to rework/weld the throttle linkage (specifically the cable-stop's angle) to smooth the pedal's feel throughout it's range.
    - There's also the vacuum advance feed that remains outstanding. Right now I've got a single tap from the front runner feeding the dizzy which does not provide a smooth constant vacuum. It's also come up in the Ratsun thread that the line should be in front of the throttle plate rather than after as it is now. Personally, I'm hoping to simply convert to an electric Dizzy without the need of vacuum advance (any suggestions?) so I can simply make this issue moot.
Attachments
CarbsMounted.JPG
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R1CarbQuestion.JPG
Breakdown of the colored sections:
•Pink circles are the idle mixture screws. If covered (mine were, see yellow circles in picture below), get a 3mm drill and enlarge the hole then screw a self tapping screw into it and with mole grips firmly on the screw tap the grips with a hammer and the plug will come right out exposing the screws. Screw them all the way in and then 3 3/4 turns out.

•Red circles are vents for the diaphragms and can be left as they are.

•Yellow circles are float bowl vents and must be left open

•Green circles are actually for running water through the carbs to prevent icing

•Orange circles is throttle and bracket

•Blue circle is the chock and bracket
R1CarbQuestion.JPG (218.79 KiB) Viewed 8869 times
R1CarbQuestion2.jpg
Breakdown of the colored sections:
•Red circle is the pilot jet and doesn’t need drilling or enlarging just make sure you can see daylight through it.

•Purple circle is the ‘flexi tickover adjuster’, basically a screw which manipulates the master carb.

•Orange circles individual throttle adjustment screws. The three other carbs are controlled by the master carb but can be individually adjusted for synching

•Green circle is the fuel

•Turquoise circle (beside the red circle) is the DVG jet, basically the main jet.
R1CarbQuestion2.jpg (116.42 KiB) Viewed 8869 times
'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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okayfine
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby okayfine » 18 Apr 2012 08:19

Still would be very interested to see before/after dyno for this.

DADZSUN wrote:I'm hoping to simply convert to an electric Dizzy without the need of vacuum advance (any suggestions?) so I can simply make this issue moot.[/list]


Nissan EI dizzy still uses and needs vac advance. You'd have to go to something like a programmable ignition box (not MSD 6A, but 6AL-2) and an additional level of sensors to supply it load information.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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andrew.lori
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby andrew.lori » 18 Apr 2012 10:26

Fritz had the car at my place yesterday and I agree 100% to the wheels and getting rid of the silly tint . The car looks great and sounded Very Nice when he pulled away however next time I want to hear it at Red Line.
Andrew
Oh Ya come back any time and we can weld up the linkage for the carbs ...... then I get the RED LINE exit :)
1966 Sunbeam Tiger MK1A
1970 Datsun 510 CASC Road Racer ( to be restored )
1972 Datsun 510 SR Monster Sold it
1977 Datsun 200SX
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby RonM » 18 Apr 2012 14:33

This is very interesting and informative. Thanks for posting it. I'd really like to get some follow up once you get the CVs dialed in. Another cool advantage with this setup is the plenum box. This gives you the ability to plumb a cold air intake. Cooler intake gives a denser oxygen air fuel mixture = more power.

I'm sure there have been advancements in CV technology, but when I was tuning sport bikes back in the late 80's early 90's the stock CV carbs were the first thing to go. The issue was an annoying throttle lag. When you punched them W.O.T. the diaphragm would drop the needle and the engine wouldn't respond until the vacuum dropped. By then it's too late, because the power isn't delivered until much higher RPM. The only option was a slow roll on. When the GSXR 1100 first came out one of the biggest advantages it had was it came with Mikuni box slid carbs. All it took was a Vance & Hines pipe, re-jetting the manes, and it was an instant track dominator. It was stupid fast compared to other stock class bikes, because it delivered instant power at the throttle. While everyone else was busy downshifting the GSXR was pulling hard at W.O.T. from 3,000 RPM up to 11,000.

I understand your motivation for this swap is fuel economy (in part) and isn't limited to performance considerations alone. Once you get your vacuum advance worked out though I would be very interested in hearing more about your W.O.T. throttle response throughout the RPM power curve. Right now (without the vacuum advance hooked up) when you punch it, does the motor fall on it's face? When you do get it all sorted out, do you plan on dynoing it? If so, I'd love to see the graph. I may be doing a Fairlady 2000 Roadster project with a friend, and this setup looks like a very nice update option. I'll be watching this build closely.

Again, thanks for your attention to detail and presenting this info from a "noobie" perspective. I'm sure this thread will be very helpful for others just starting out with their first 510 project.

Welcome back to the Realm,

Ron M.
Sometimes people loose touch with subjectivity, because they've got they're heads stuck too far up they're own,,, Reality.

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby DADZSUN » 19 Apr 2012 06:00

RonM wrote:...Another cool advantage with this setup is the plenum box....

...The issue was an annoying throttle lag. When you punched them W.O.T. the diaphragm would drop the needle and the engine wouldn't respond until the vacuum dropped....

I understand your motivation for this swap is fuel economy (in part) and isn't limited to performance considerations alone. ...

... presenting this info from a "noobie" perspective. I'm sure this thread will be very helpful for others just starting out with their first 510 project...


Hey Ron,

Good call on the plenum - something I've been quietly considering. And yes, one of my primary goals on this project is fuel efficiency. With the way fuel prices are going now, and down the road, I want my 510 to be as cheap as possible to enjoy. Future potential projects include: electric fan, electronic dizzy, 5 speed and possibly even a larger final drive.

One of the reasons I feel I can continue to 'efficientize' the car is that I find the mid-range on the L16 to be perfectly adequate for running about (60-120 kph). Don't get me wrong, I've piloted Solo2 Championship winning cars and there's obviously no comparison in power & handling, but this car isn't about that for me. That nice mid-range I first mentioned in my introduction post is definitely carried over with the R1 carbs. WOT at mid range responds very well, far better than some modern cars with a lazy auto tranny for example.

Reading your comments above, I can't help but think of how much it sounds like comments on the page I've used to get me up to speed with CV carbs:

... The downfall of a slide carburetor is they don't work as well on the street. This is because they don't work well over a wide range of throttle setting, engine speeds, and engine loads. For example, let's say we're riding along in a higher gear at fairly low engine speeds. We want to accelerate quickly so we yank open the throttle on our slide carbs but nothing happens. Or least that is what it seems like at first. What we've really done is opened up the air passage into the cylinder all the way, but the engine's piston is still moving slowly. The engine gets a big gulp of air at first, not enough fuel to go with it and it has just stalled out momentarily... This is why we don't want to just grab a big handful of throttle on a slide carb engine, at least at low engine speeds. But all you old timers remember that now, don't you!

... about constant velocity carburetors. To do this trick, we simply take control of the slide away from the rider. We still need a throttle so we'll give 'em a throttle plate valve back to control the overall airflow. We control the opening of the slide by balancing it against the airflow. We can sense the airflow by porting the pressure from various places in the carburetor itself. As the airflow increases, it's pressure through the venturi decreases, relative to outside pressure, and this allows the slide mechanism to open.


Guess what I'm saying is that the R1 carbs equipped with slides AND a throttle plate appear to work quite well on the Datsun. Right now I feel it works incredibly well, but I want to leave some wiggle room for potential future hickups. :wink:


NOOBIE lesson: - The whole point of this thread is to provide almost excessive detail on procedures and to highlight my mistakes, so that future noobies won't make the same mistake I've made. This is where I swallow my pride and 'fess up - as embarrasing as it will be.

So when looking at pulling the stock manifold, I was baffled as to where the souce of coolant was located. For those who don't know, coolant is fed through the manifold to prevent the carb from icing up in winter. I could find the exit (which I crimped up with a piece of coolant hose and strong pliers - see pic below). So I figured the source was hidden and that it will be found once I slowly started to remove the intake manifold... That's when I unfortunately discovered the source of coolant (in the manifold's lower flange) - as it gushed into the head/engine.

Noobie Lesson #1 - Drain the coolant BEFORE pulling the intake manifold.

I took a shop vac and sucked what I thought was all the fluid. A subsequant start gave the tell-tale sign of hydrolock.

Noobie Lession #2 - Water in the combustion chamber does not compress, causing the engine to 'lock' and the starter to not turn over. If you keep trying, you can quite possibly break parts. Don't be a lazy ass like I was, when in doubt remove the spark plugs, turn the engine and watch the show as coolant will be sprayed EVERYWHERE!
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'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby okayfine » 19 Apr 2012 06:09

DADZSUN wrote:For those who don't know, coolant is fed through the manifold to prevent the carb from icing up in winter.


Manifold coolant is used to enhance cold-start performance by boosting the manifold temp quicker, this has benefits for keeping the intake charge fully suspended. Carb icing is dealt with via the stovepipe riser from the exhaust manifold to the air filter snout.

DADZSUN wrote:I could find the exit (which I crimped up with a piece of coolant hose and strong pliers - see pic below). So I figured the source was hidden and that it will be found once I slowly started to remove the intake manifold... That's when I unfortunately discovered the source of coolant (in the manifold's lower flange) - as it gushed into the head/engine.


Manifold coolant actually exits the manifold through the ports in the head. It is introduced to the manifold from the vertical pipe at the fitting mounted to the timing cover, where the lower radiator hose connects. A coolant circuit diagram is available in the FSM.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby DADZSUN » 19 Apr 2012 06:16

Noobie Lesson #3 - Noobies shouldn't offer functional explanations until they're 100% certain they know what they're talking about. :oops:

Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't know about either of your points.
'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby okayfine » 19 Apr 2012 06:44

DADZSUN wrote:Noobie Lesson #3 - Noobies shouldn't offer functional explanations until they're 100% certain they know what they're talking about. :oops:


Since that's a lesson that never gets old, I went and looked at said coolant circuit diagram. Turns out you were correct:

Cooling-2.png
Cooling-2.png (215.52 KiB) Viewed 8768 times


Carry on! :lol:
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby James » 19 Apr 2012 13:46

I always thought of it the other way as well. But it makes sense - you want the hot water from the head hitting the manifold.
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby RonM » 19 Apr 2012 16:59

DADZSUN.

Thanks for the follow up. I'm impressed with your approach to modernizing the tried and true L16 so that it's a more efficient reliable daily driver power plant. I've seen enough "modernizing" tech thrown at older motors that seem to have a tech for tech sake approach. All too often there's no real benefit other that an ego stroke for being novel. That has it's place, but for the project I described we're interested in respectful improvements on a fundamentally stock 30 year old car. Anyone can buy a Miata and enjoy the benefits of a modern convertible roadster. The ego stroke we're looking for is about the 2000 roadster itself, but we don't want to sacrifice functionality at the price of some romantic attachment to total originality. The criteria we're using is;

A. It has to be noninvasive and totally reversible.
B. It has to be respectful of the original mechanical design. (ie, fuel injection, or engine swap)
C. No cosmetic alterations, (blingy rims, carbon fiber wing)
D. Unlimited suspension and break upgrades as long as it's not visible. We might consider wider wheels if they could be fitted with stock hub caps.

Your R1 carb upgrade exemplifies the kind of engine upgrades we're looking to make. thanks for the inspiration and info.
Sometimes people loose touch with subjectivity, because they've got they're heads stuck too far up they're own,,, Reality.

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby speeder » 20 Apr 2012 14:51

Dadzsun,

Kudos for thinking outside the box and then implementing your ideas, especially on an L16 that most people quickly yank and forget about. Then again for explaining it all and documenting it. It makes fun reading!

You've probably already seen it, but here's a link to something somewhat similar using Mikuni flat slide carbs. Someone posted something about a nice 510 wagon running this carb setup here on the Realm a while back, but I don't remember it having all that much info.

The link:

http://www.v-performance.com/products/a ... kuni_carbs


I like the look of your car better without the stripes, tint, and blacked out window frames.

Keep the updates coming. I'm sure we'd all love to see another longer video clip of the engine and all 4 of those slides moving.

What kind of gas mileage are you getting?
'72 4 door 510, '68 2000 Roadster

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby defdes » 20 Apr 2012 16:05


Thanks for that link, a good read.

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Full 280zx Brakes

Postby DADZSUN » 23 May 2012 17:39

One of the first things I wanted to update on the 510 were the brakes. The Master Brake Cylinder (MBC) leaked and frankly I didn't want to bother learning about drums and how to maintain them. Besides, my most favorite part of performance driving is threshold braking (followed my cornering, then power), so the stock setup simply didn't cut it.

I was getting the 280zx struts installed so I decided to install a complete 280zx brake system - similar to the DQ article.

Since there's already some good How-To references online, I won't reinvent the wheel, but simply mention where I deviated from the links above.

1) Firstly, to add to the DQ article, you'll want '83 280zx rear calipers since they're better than the '79-'81s. Also, don't bother with the mentioned 'proportioning valve' since it's just a splitter.

2) To remove the drum back plate I simply took a Sawzall to it instead of removing the stub axles as explained in the ‘How-To’. Several cuts were required but it was all pretty easy. See pic below.

3) I removed the OEM Master Brake cylinder and simply bolted up the 280zx unit using the 510's pushrod. Noobie lesson #5 -Before pulling the stock MBC, mark where the front and rear lines feed the 510's spliter - or else you'll get really good at re-doing lines as I did. Note that the smaller front reservoir is for the rear brakes when doing the new lines. Also, my MBC came with low-fluid wiring which I simply removed.

4) I purchased a cheap brake line bender and ran some rather short, but still effective, lines from the new MBS to the OEM splitter. See pic below.

5) Get the usual cleaning done on the calipers, and repaint if required. I purchased a couple of seal kits and new lines from RockAuto.
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BackingPlate.JPG
Several strategic Sawzall cuts will remove that pesky drum backplate
BackingPlate.JPG (112.07 KiB) Viewed 8468 times
Brake_Line.JPG
New 280zx 15/16" MCS mounted, smaller front resevoir is for the rear calipers. Note the new lines which feed the 510's splitter.
Brake_Line.JPG (47.75 KiB) Viewed 8468 times
Last edited by DADZSUN on 23 May 2012 17:59, edited 6 times in total.
'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z


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