Noobie's 510 project

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Byron510
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby Byron510 » 11 Mar 2016 17:18

funwithmonkeys wrote: I don't want to be the one taking out a line of cars because my wheel tore off.



Been there, done that - only didn't take out a line of cars thankfully.

When setting up a club auto cross at the Toy R Us lot many years ago, I wanted to try out the course without giving myself an advantage. So I took a dead stock, worn out, automatic 510 on crap 155 tires to run the course. Coming around a sweeper, I literally tore off the hub from the RR control arm. The only thing left holding the wheel was the now bent shock and the brake line which was somehow still attached after tearing away from the arm itself...this was funny because I was on an empty parking lot. We all had a great laugh, called the tow truck and that was it. Had I entered or exited a freeway with speed involved on that same arm when it let go, well the ending likely would not have been so humorous. Since then I regularly and very closely scrutineer the rear cross members and trailing arms on my projects!

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby Idoxlr8 » 11 Mar 2016 18:55

I could sense Norm's car was a potential hazard. That's why I was always 15 car lengths behind you guys on that Whidby island trip.
I'm all about the safety. :mrgreen:
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DADZSUN
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Quick update

Postby DADZSUN » 12 Mar 2016 16:35

Despite earlier suggestions that the passenger motor mount was sufficient I decided to fix it. The rubber was fairly twisted and frankly I wanted to use my new MIG Licoln Weld-Pak 140 (with gas!!!) welder.

I used the OEM mount and cut the back plate off. I made a new back plate, bolted it on the block, lifted the engine a few mm higher than ideal (to account for load), made sure both halves of the mount were bolted down tightly, and then welded the OEM mount to the new backplate. Pretty simple actually. For those who are curious, the top bracket on the mount holds the balance tube - to send a steady signal from the four runners on the intake manifold to the MegaJolt MAP sensor .

PassengerEngineMount.jpg
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Engine sits close to KA-OEM now.
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As a follow-up to my previous post, I wanted to comment on my experience going stainless. It gets expensive... quickly! It's not just the surcharge for the pipe, you need the wire ($70 with tax - Praxair), and you need 100% Argon gas. I lucked out and got a the wire for $50 with tax and for the gas I went to TSC (The Country Store) and purchased their smallest tank ($216) and a fill of 100% Argon ($54). The cool thing is that you can return the tank empty for a full refund - with original receipt so gas will only cost ~ $60'ish with tax.

I've read that 100% Argon splatters more and it certainly does (IMO about 1/4 of the way from gas to flux). The flame is pretty cool and the sound is more like an Acetylene torch rather than the typical frying bacon of 75/25 mix. I'm nowhere near as good with it as mild steel & 75/25.

StainlessWeld.jpg
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A bit of grinding and it's better. One tip I figured out is when welding a pipe to one side of the v-band clamp, have the other side paired up and clamped in to prevent distortion. I thought of the heat about 1/2 through the first weld and glad I did as it needed a whack from the hammer to properly seat with the other half.
StainlessWeld_1.jpg
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Muffler hanging rods are welded on and the Cdn Tire rubber hangers work well. I purchased two feet of 5/8" stainless bar ($14) for the hanging rods, hoping to hammer bends when held in a vice... NOT!!! That's some STIFF metal! I had to cut @ 45, flip, and weld.
MufflerIn.jpg
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Tomorrow I start cutting bends and run the exhaust under the 1/2 shaft, through the rear cross member and toward the exhaust manifold. I'm a little concerned how I'm going to weld a bend to a straight pipe as a mandrel bend is never the same ID as a straight pipe (at least mine aren't - off by a mm or two). I can fill the gap no problem but it's becoming obvious that internal smoothness/flow will never remain exactly 2.25". I guess it's a moot point as I'll have to 'Lobster Back' the final pipe into the muffler anyways...
'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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okayfine
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby okayfine » 12 Mar 2016 17:06

100% argon for stainless, sure, but if you're not purging, MIG with mix gas works. You'll getting contamination in the weld because of the CO2 in mix, however you're getting precipitate inside the pipe with argon if you're not purging the interior while welding (due to the heat and o2).

In the end, not a big deal. This is how you learn, by doing. And your system will last. And if it doesn't, you have the tools to fix it. Also wouldn't worry too much about straight to bend joints. It would be a problem if you were TIGing the joint, but performance-wise you're not going to notice the difference.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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duke
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Re: Stainless exhaust update/questions

Postby duke » 13 Mar 2016 09:52

DADZSUN wrote:
duke wrote:Don't worry about mixing 409 and 304. They will weld just fine.


OK, so the rear cross member is in and I'm ready to start the exhaust. I've been looking for stainless wire for my gased-MIG setup and found some - but then the vendor told me NOT to use a Carbon/Argon mix... it must only be Argon.

Switching bottles etc is pretty expensive, can I not get away with using Co/Ar mix along with a .030 stainless wire for the exhaust? I understand the welds could rust (easy to paint), I just want to make sure the join can handle the vibration/twisting from the engine.


I can't really say. I have zero experience with MIG welding stainless steel. Reading your later posts though, it seems like you have figured things out.

okayfine wrote:100% argon for stainless, sure, but if you're not purging, MIG with mix gas works. You'll getting contamination in the weld because of the CO2 in mix, however you're getting precipitate inside the pipe with argon if you're not purging the interior while welding (due to the heat and o2).

In the end, not a big deal. This is how you learn, by doing. And your system will last. And if it doesn't, you have the tools to fix it. Also wouldn't worry too much about straight to bend joints. It would be a problem if you were TIGing the joint, but performance-wise you're not going to notice the difference.


Another good alternative to backpurging is to use a product called Solar Flux to coat the backside of the joint. It prevents precipitate (dingle berries to the less scientifically minded) by encapsulating the backside of the weld and preventing O2 contamination.
Duke Schimmer

'72 2-Door 510
"Simplify and add lightness."

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DADZSUN
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Horns

Postby DADZSUN » 15 Mar 2016 09:07

Ah yes, back purge. Welding is still a subject for me where it's 'the more you know the more you realize you don't know'... Thanks for the info and suggestions guys.

I've got a few questions about horns. My car came with a standard disc styled horn but never worked. The relay is missing so that might the first place to start - thankfully it seems to be easy to source online Nissan #26320-89905.

These Miyamoto Model M horns came with a box of parts when I purchased the car.

Horns.jpg
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I've got a few questions:

    Are these horns OEM?
    I've tested them on a battery and only one honks. Are they easy to rebuild/repair?
    Where do these things even mount? I pictured them in a fashion I saw online but couldn't see where in the bay it was mounted.
'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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bertvorgon
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby bertvorgon » 15 Mar 2016 09:45

This is from my Bert Vorgon Spring projects thread.
Those do look like stock horns.



Got a lot more done this week, number 1 was finishing the horn install. James and I did a bit of a back to back horn test, with the factory horns not quite as loud, and having a decidedly American car sound. The Honda Odyssey horns have of course the shriller and louder Japanese sound, and guaranteed they will get anybody's attention who crosses my path! I mounted the horns on the bolt holes used for the belly pan, so it worked out perfectly. Here is the link to my Vimeo file. Sorry if the video loads slowly on the first go round, I did not know how to change the file format.

http://vimeo.com/60304404
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

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1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby OUTthere » 15 Mar 2016 10:12

:?:
Attachments
day 1 volcanoe 008.JPG
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby 510rob » 15 Mar 2016 11:07


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DADZSUN
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Productive week

Postby DADZSUN » 18 Mar 2016 06:03

Thanks for the horn info guys. It turns out that both of my horns are working but due to my larger rad they won't fit in the OEM spot. I'll have to fab up some kind of adapter plate.

I thought I'd post a quick update as things are progressing quickly and I don't want to skip/forget stuff.

As much as I liked my Pipercross filter for the R1 carbs, I wanted something a little more old-school and to show off the velocity stacks. At the Calabogie event last year I was told of a shop that makes great custom filters, Bills B Racing http://www.bbrfilters.com. It turns out I didn't need custom as I'm running slightly modified DCOE stacks so it was a quick order and ship. I'm very pleased with how they turned out. I have yet to actually use them, but apparently they offer pretty good filtration, there's 3 layers with a very fine mesh sandwiched between two heavier grade mesh. A nice thick tacky rubber ring holds the filter in place.

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I decided not to proceed with installing a hydraulic parking brake due to cost and added complexity of finding parts and make it fit in the car discretely. Instead I hacked up a quick solution to use part of the 280zx parking brake cable to pull just the back right caliper. It works surprisingly well. I won't be able to reach the left rear caliper with the new exhaust in the way but no biggie as I only need the parking brake when warming up the carbs.

Mar18_3.jpg
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Finally the exhaust is pretty much done. I've only got the muffler tip, and extra hanger, and the wide band O2 bung to put into place. I'm quite pleased with how it all fits, nice and tucked w/o all the heavy bends of the previous setup. Hopefully it's durable, I'm thinking of welding another layer of flat stainless steel over the first couple of joins to further reinforce them from the heat and vibration etc..

Mar18_4.jpg
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'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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Exhaust... done!

Postby DADZSUN » 26 Mar 2016 17:21

I'm sure I spend thousands in man-hours getting this exhaust complete but it was fun and rewarding experience. I'm quite pleased with how it turned out, lots of cross member clearance, easy to dismantle and remove portions as required, nice and tight to the chassis, minimal large bends (compared to my previous setup).

Funny how replacing a blown muffler was the catalyst of a fairly substantial scope creep for this winter project: blown muffler -> new exhaust -> enlarge rear cross member -> install Byron brackets -> refresh the LSD. I'm happy to say that it's all done!

I started with the muffler and worked my way forwards.
Exhaust.jpg
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I spent quite a bit of time getting the routing around the half-axle to minimize bend and keep it tight to the chassis.
HalfAxleClearance.jpg
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Along with the two hangers to support the muffler I decided to add a third hanger just behind the rear cross member rather than rely on friction-alone from the v-band clamp.
CrossMemberClearance.jpg
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The main run was a little tricky to drop from the cross member and still stay reasonably tucked in the driveshaft well.
ExhaustRun.jpg
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I found a nice spot to tuck the wideband bung & sensor. Close to 1" clearance from the chassis and tranny, I can run the wiring up through the shifter hole.
ExhaustWideBandBung.jpg
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All that's left is electrical tweaking of gauges and sensors. I've already installed a new rad fan which I'll post shortly. My replacement oil filter housing should be here this week which means I'll be able to fire up the car in the next week or two.

Question, every time I submit a post with 'Place inline' pictures, the Preview looks fine but when I Submit the pictures get shuffled. Does anyone else get the same?
'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby duke » 27 Mar 2016 09:33

Looks awesome! Great job.
Duke Schimmer



'72 2-Door 510

"Simplify and add lightness."

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defdes
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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby defdes » 27 Mar 2016 10:16

Shouldn't the O2 sensor be placed as close to the collector as possible?
Super nice job.

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Re: Noobie's 510 project

Postby bertvorgon » 27 Mar 2016 14:15

Sensor Placement. The sensor bung (or boss) should be at least 8" away from the combustion cylinder (at or after the collector if you have one, unless you're installing a sensor for each cylinder). To avoid condensation running into the sensor, it should be installed at the side or on top, NOT on the bottom of the exhaust pipe, for example between the 10:00 and 2:00 position. If you don't have a bung, any muffler shop can weld one in for you. If you have a catalytic converter, install the sensor before it. If you have a turbo, install the sensor AFTER it.
Temperature. Temperature at the bung should not exceed 500 degrees C or 900 degrees F. (Extended bungs help with hot locations, see next item).
Extended bungs. For high performance and power sports applications, we strongly recommend using 1" bungs (p/n 3764.) These longer bungs increase sensor life in the "richer" conditions encountered under boost, leaded fuel use, or two-stroke applications.
Safety. Sensors get very hot. Usually this is a non-issue, since they are safely in the exhaust bung when in use. However, if you have the sensor out (for example during a free-air calibration), be sure not to touch the sensor tip, or let it touch a combustible surface.
Never leave an unconnected sensor in running exhaust. An un-powered sensor will be damaged when exposed to exhaust gas.
Sensor Life. Wideband oxygen sensors are designed to withstand the harsh environment of combustion exhaust for 30,000+ miles. However they are complex electro-chemical devices, and lifespan can be reduced by: A) Running leaded gas; B) Running very rich (less than 12.5 AFR) for long periods of time; C) Hitting a heated sensor with water droplets; D) Hitting a running sensor with silicon spray (like WD-40, etc.); E) Dropping a sensor on concrete.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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DADZSUN
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Exhaust Part Deux - some additional details for documentation's sake

Postby DADZSUN » 01 Apr 2016 18:02

In the case of my Innovate's MTX-L sensor, the placement has to be "at least 24" downstream of the exhaust port outlet (after the collector), or 24" after the turbocharger if so equipped" - http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/MTX-L_print%201.2.pdf
My understanding is that because the sensor is heated independent of the exhaust heat, it doesn't really matter how far back it is placed so long as it's upstream of any catalytic converters or X/H pipes. There is certainly enough wiring provided to place the sensor pretty far back if required.

When starting this project I had no idea how much supply to get. I purchased 45, 90, and 180 degree bends, a 6 inch length of flex pipe, and ~5 feet of piping.
PreExhaust.jpg
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It turns out that I was pretty much bang on, here's all that was left when I was done:
RemainingExhaust.jpg
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While the exhaust was out I painted it with 'Tech Line' Black Satin exhaust coating. You need an airbrush to apply a thin film of approximately .001" to .0015". I went ahead and painted the entire length to finish off my 4oz can.
ExhaustPaint.jpg
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I'm not sure how effective it is but it certainly turned the finish to a cool color.
CoatedExhaust.jpg
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Here's a pic of the full length
FullExhaust.jpg
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'72 Datsun 510 - KA24E/R1 carbs/EDIS 4 Megajolt
'76 Datsun 280z


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