Noobie's 510 project

View and post your 510 project(s)
User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10309
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by bertvorgon » 20 Dec 2013 16:19

I dunno, that would put the single mounting point off center quit a bit.

if it was me, with your setup, I would use a tandem style H belt, going to the back shelf, with two distinct mounting points, in a straight line with your shoulders. With a good size back up washer, I would foresee no problem with that.

Just a thought, more so for street protection, although I have seen many a car flip at Solo stuff too.

http://www.seatbeltsplus.com/category/4 ... rness.html

You can see the different styles, those with the bolt in H harness.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
DADZSUN
Supporter
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Aug 2011 18:35
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by DADZSUN » 20 Dec 2013 16:37

The Schroth Rallye 3 harness is designed for a single rear offset mounting point, often piggy-backing with the same-side rear seat shoulder mount. That single 'branch' which goes back and secures to the chassis is designed to pivot and account for the offset-ness.

Having said that, I like your idea of 'H' styled harnesses going straight back to the parcel shelf - perhaps even weld in a single 'harness' bar about 1" above the length of parcel shelf between the C pillars? Better yet, have a bolt-in bar that uses the existing shoulder mounts I pointed out? My 350z had a similar harness bar that ran horizontally across the car using the shoulder belt mounts. The damn thing literally pulled the B pillars together a good 1/2" (surprised the windshield didn't crack). Weight gains would limited (could even use a heavy gauge aluminum tube), and the location would make it safer for rear seat passengers during public road use.
'72 Datsun 510 - Orange w/Watanabes & KA24E
'76 Datsun 280z - Current rebuild project

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10309
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by bertvorgon » 20 Dec 2013 17:30

That bar idea sounds best to me.

Having unfortunately tested my seat belt systems on two occasions, I can only attest to having a proper seat belt in a real crash, can keep you from serious and lifelong injury or long term chronic pain.

In both instances, I walked away not even sore, having both a proper supporting seat, and belts properly tight, specially for your chest/shoulder area. 3" if you can, as that really spreads the load around.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
DADZSUN
Supporter
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Aug 2011 18:35
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by DADZSUN » 21 Dec 2013 18:24

Lots of progress today. Pulled the L20B, measured/weighted some tranny options, installed the KA for final pan and radiator clearance.

Some notes on trannys.
  • Left: Dogleg tranny. ~66 cm long with +1cm added to that length for the butt of the output shaft. Approximate weight is 78.2lbs (with gear lube)
    Middle: '91 D21 pickup KA24e tranny. ~76.5 cm long, less 4.5 cm to the butt of the output shaft (deep collar). Approximate weight is 83.6lbs (no oil)
    Right: 240sx KA24 tranny (not sure what year). ~ 86.5 cm long, less 2 cm to the butt of the output shaft. Approximate weight is 90.4lbs (no oil).
The shifter mechanism on the truck KA is only 3cm further back than the dogleg, and only ~1cm longer. The tranny hole in the 510 is 11cm long and the dogleg is jammed right up against the front of it. The truck tranny should fit in the hole without any cutting required (will confirm tomorrow). The 240sx shifter mechanism is an additional 14.5cm further back than the truck.

My dilemma is that I want a tranny that's further back to provide less of a reach to shift (240sx?). I'm confident the 240sx tranny is good and I like the length/throw of the shifter. The truck tranny would require no cutting, is lighter but it has a different (gangly) shifter that would require cutting/welding. If the engine is any indication the truck tranny may not be in good shape. I think fittings tomorrow and research on gear ratios will help in my decision.

Edit: looks like the D21 1-5 ratios are: 3.985/2.326/1.415/1/.860 vs the 240sx: 3.321/1.902/1.308/1/.759. Overall the D21 ratios are quite a bit shorter, I would imagine for more 'pickup' (ha ha!) when hauling heavy loads. D21 is shorter 1-5 than the 240sx as follows: 20%/22.3%/8.2%/0%/13.3%. I guess the D21 would be better for acceleration but worse for highway cruising and daily driving (hate having to shift while turning mid-way through an intersection). While I try to not let Solo2 dictate mods, having such a short first gear with all that torque makes it even more useless than usual, and a shorter second gear means higher frequency of redlining which mandates the time-killing upshift into 3rd - especially when I won't have a rev limiter to bounce off of. I think I've answered which tranny I'm going with (240sx), but will still test-fit the D21 tranny to see if it can indeed be installed w/o cutting.

Besides that, the KA24e was installed today to finalize the passenger engine mount (modified L series) and oil pan clearance. The oil pan is still a good 1" lower than the cross member so I'm going to have to weld a mini ramp on the cross member to offer some protection. Overall the engine sits quite low and there's lots of clearance (hood and strut tower) for velocity stacks on the carbs. 8)
Attachments
Tranny_3Options.jpg
Tranny_3Options.jpg (117.26 KiB) Viewed 2079 times
Tranny_3Outputs.jpg
Notice how much higher the shifter collar on the D21 (middle) tranny is compared to the 240sx (right)
Tranny_3Outputs.jpg (89.1 KiB) Viewed 2079 times
Tranny_Bellhousings.jpg
Tranny_Bellhousings.jpg (121.74 KiB) Viewed 2079 times
KA_Mockup.jpg
KA_Mockup.jpg (119.14 KiB) Viewed 2079 times
'72 Datsun 510 - Orange w/Watanabes & KA24E
'76 Datsun 280z - Current rebuild project

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10309
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by bertvorgon » 22 Dec 2013 08:48

Make sure you shroud that rad in!
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

goichi1
Supporter
Posts: 4039
Joined: 22 Jan 2008 21:57
Location: Fayetteville, GA

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by goichi1 » 23 Dec 2013 08:59

Good info on the motor build, I'm building one for my 720 truck, going with the 240sx fuel injection though. Where did you get your rebuild kit and how much was it? I have been looking but hard to tell if the Ebay kits are any good??

My block is still at the machine shop, they had to bore to .030 to clean it up, it only had 120,000 miles on it. I was surprised is needed that much bore...but it's hard to find parts for that bore so they are going to .040

User avatar
DADZSUN
Supporter
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Aug 2011 18:35
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by DADZSUN » 23 Dec 2013 13:59

After reading reviews on quite a few 240sx forums, I went with a generic EBay rebuild kit. The bearings were 'King' which are apparently pretty good. Gaskets seem to be ok although I supplemented many of them with Permex gasket sealant. Not everything was included in this kit, I had to source 40mm freeze plugs from Napa and reuse many bolts/components (timing tensioner and oil pump drive gear).

Let me know if you need EFI parts. I've got a full system from a 240sx (wiring, ECU, intake manifold etc...) and a Nissan external fuel pump.

.040 is quite a punch eh? 1mm for a total of 90mm I believe?

What are you using for rebuild & start-up lubrication? My engine machinist recommended STP oil treatment which is exactly what the video recommended. For start-up I'm using Brad Penn Break-in 'green' oil. It did wonders reviving a rebuild (but never started) L20B that sat in a barn for years before I ran it the last 2 summers. I've got to be particularly diligent on my start-up because I'm breaking in in a brand new cam. As per JWT: "Break-in should consist of 10-15 minutes of 1500 – 2000 RPM and 50-100 miles of varied RPM below 4000 RPM."
Attachments
EngineBlockSTP.jpg
EngineBlockSTP.jpg (118.79 KiB) Viewed 2005 times
EngineBlockBradPenn.jpg
EngineBlockBradPenn.jpg (104.59 KiB) Viewed 2005 times
'72 Datsun 510 - Orange w/Watanabes & KA24E
'76 Datsun 280z - Current rebuild project

User avatar
DADZSUN
Supporter
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Aug 2011 18:35
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by DADZSUN » 23 Dec 2013 14:37

Nice progress the past couple of days.

The engine placement is pretty much set. One question I always had was how much clearance is there for velocity stacks. Apparently there's quite a bit, an additional 10cm/4" from my 60mm deep Pipercross air filter. So the plan will be to add 50mm velocity stacks and a deeper single filter, or filter socks. These stacks will not only help amplify that awesome sound, but apparently they flow enough air to drop a similar build's (Ratsun R1 carb thread) air/fuel ratio by a FULL point on his wide band sensor. :shock:

Yesterday I installed the D21 KA tranny, and as suspected it fit in the car without any cutting required. In fact, there was another inch or two to the back of the tunnel hole. Attached is a picture of the 'gangly' shifter. Had I kept this setup, I would have had to cut and weld a better shifter. Either way, the reach was still too far forward for my taste.

Next I installed the 240sx tranny. The shifting mechanism is ~15cm longer so I had to cut into the tunnel about 4 inches back. It went pretty well IMO, I've still got to trim a bit more to account for tranny movement (1/2"?). It looks like I've got to also flare out the tunnel a bit underneath where the tranny squeezes into a narrow section. It fits, but I'm sure there will be some noise if I don't work it a bit.

I previously mentioned the difference in weight between the 240sx EFI and my R1 carb setup. I thought it was 30 pounds, but the difference is about 40 pounds.
Attachments
EngineBlockCarbClearance.jpg
EngineBlockCarbClearance.jpg (115.72 KiB) Viewed 2003 times
TrannyD21Installed.jpg
TrannyD21Installed.jpg (99.48 KiB) Viewed 2003 times
Tranny240sxInstalled.jpg
Tranny240sxInstalled.jpg (111.92 KiB) Viewed 2003 times
KA_BucketEFI.jpg
KA_BucketEFI.jpg (111.95 KiB) Viewed 2003 times
KA_BucketCarbs.jpg
KA_BucketCarbs.jpg (104.71 KiB) Viewed 2003 times
'72 Datsun 510 - Orange w/Watanabes & KA24E
'76 Datsun 280z - Current rebuild project

goichi1
Supporter
Posts: 4039
Joined: 22 Jan 2008 21:57
Location: Fayetteville, GA

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by goichi1 » 23 Dec 2013 19:25

Great info!! thanks again, I am a little ways away from putting it all together, but want it to be right when I do. THanks again for the info!! Merry Christmas!

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10309
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by bertvorgon » 23 Dec 2013 20:58

When I bent my shifter for best reach, 3rd gear was my optimum that I used.

For most Solo use, the 2 - 3 was the most important, where I did not have to move in my seat at all, for my arm to reach 3rd gear.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
DADZSUN
Supporter
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Aug 2011 18:35
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by DADZSUN » 24 Dec 2013 06:50

Are you talking dogleg 3rd or conventional transmission layout?

Personally, I park my shifter in 2nd and leave it there for 98% of my runs. When the course layout offers speeds nearing the 100+ kph mark I'll consider 3rd gear, but more often than not I'll actually alter my lines to carry more speed in the preceeding/post corners at the expense of some straight line speed - all so I don't have to shift. I can handle the heel-toe downshift but inevitably it still eats a few tenths and consumes processing power that can be better used in threshold braking and corner entry speeds.

I will go as far as changing my final drive (currently 3.9 LSD) if I have too many visits to 3rd.
'72 Datsun 510 - Orange w/Watanabes & KA24E
'76 Datsun 280z - Current rebuild project

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10309
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by bertvorgon » 24 Dec 2013 08:09

I have the conventional H layout.

Actually, that's a good point. We put a 4:62 rear gears, and courses were MUCH faster when we first built the car. So, 3rd gear was a very usable gear, specially on 20" race tires. We too looked at what average speeds would be, then picked gears and transmission so as to minimize shifting and any disruption that causes to smoothness. Worked VERY well in my case.

I do pretty much only use 2nd now, as course's are so slow for the most part, and my engine is good for 8,000.

In the "old" days...we had 4th gear courses...which ultimately got banned by CASC when they found out about them. Said they were too fast....wimps....they were just bummed we had a whole airport to use and they only had crummy parking lots. We learned to drive seriously fast lineal slaloms.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
DADZSUN
Supporter
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Aug 2011 18:35
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by DADZSUN » 24 Dec 2013 08:57

St Lawrence Motorsport club uses the Picton airport in Ontario. Sometimes, they run all 3km (triangular course). It's so damn big that they spray paint the cone placement on the pavement LOL.

They run what I like to call a Solo1.5 course, wicked fast slalom as well.

At the end of the day they often run a Fast & Furious drag race. What a blast!

http://stlac.ca/events/competition/trav ... irections/
'72 Datsun 510 - Orange w/Watanabes & KA24E
'76 Datsun 280z - Current rebuild project

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10309
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by bertvorgon » 24 Dec 2013 10:31

Your so lucky to have that now!

When we had Boundry Bay, it was a decommissioned WW2 air base. The main runway was 5,600 feet long (1.7 Km ) with two other runways of, 3,000+ feet, so we had almost 3 miles to run, and we used it all. As you could hardly see the cars more than a mile away, we had to have walkie talkies to communicate if there was a cone or course deviation. Wish we would have had FRS radios like now. It truly was the Golden Age of Solo.

I wish I had kept some of the CASC communications. What we did learn was high speed driving!
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
DADZSUN
Supporter
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Aug 2011 18:35
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Noobie's 510 project

Post by DADZSUN » 03 Jan 2014 06:44

Despite the cold weather (-40C wind chill today), progress has continued quite steadily. There are *some* positives with the cold, beer stays chilled and there are no mosquitos/black flies buzzing around.

This project is one of those "the more you do, the more you realise there is to do...". There is still a LOT of things to do on my list. :shock: The past few days have focused on exhaust fitment, engine mount and welding the crash structure under the fender.

For the engine mounts, I'm using 510 lower mounts. Upper mounts are a modified L series passenger side and KA pickup driver's side. The engine sits very low making clearance to the steering link and oil pan exposure potential issues. The steering link clears as-is by millimeters, but with engine movement there's likely going to be potential issues. I'm going to add a 1/8" spacer between the lower and upper mount, this seems to magnify the clearance at the steering link so that there's now at least 1/2" when turn the steering wheel lock-to-lock.

I also modified the KA exhaust manifold for final fitment. I needed to cut 3.5" out of the pipe (just below the final collector) to pull the horizontal run up tighter to the floor pan. I'm also using a 2" ID flex join coupler to provide the necessary exhaust movement AND to make it easier to disconnect the manifold in the future. I'm thinking that 2.5" pipe would be better for the planned 170-180 hp output, but I can't see the ROI being worth it for a custom manifold/exhaust/muffler to gain 5-10hp?

The manifold will be eventually coated to supress heat radiation within the engine bay. Quotes for proper coating are pricey and since I'm a cheap bastard (and not 100% positive I won't be running a customer setup down the road), I'm going to try the DIY coating. Specifically, I plan to try Tech Line Black Satin ($25 Cdn at caswellcanada.ca).
Attachments
EngineMount_1.jpg
EngineMount_1.jpg (149.6 KiB) Viewed 1838 times
EngineMount_3.jpg
EngineMount_3.jpg (101.89 KiB) Viewed 1838 times
EngineMount_2.jpg
EngineMount_2.jpg (96.66 KiB) Viewed 1838 times
Exhaust.jpg
Exhaust.jpg (104.92 KiB) Viewed 1838 times
'72 Datsun 510 - Orange w/Watanabes & KA24E
'76 Datsun 280z - Current rebuild project

Post Reply