Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

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sssexxx
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Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 18 Mar 2013 16:35

Many of you may know my very long and overwhelingly complicated build thread from another forum named after the things that cats love to chase. I won't link to it, but search the same username over there and you'll find me.

Or perhaps from my most recent post here warning about a certain body shop you should never take your car to.

Read that and get caught up here: http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=25096

I figured, since I am sending my car off to paint and body and completely stripped her down it was time to start a build here.

So when we last left off on this wonderful adventure kids, the doors had been completely gutted. What I did not tell you all was that it was done with a deadline in mind. The kind of all kings of breathing life in to Datsuns had humbly blessed me by agreeing to take on my project and I had to have her completely gutted and prepped for his arrival on late Sunday. Being a man of such quality work and with about as good as a reputation as you can imagine, I did not want to disappoint him. So I strapped on the gloves and prepared to get dirty, really, really, disgustingly awesome dirty....

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So, with my goal weighing heavily on my mind I decided it was best to get some clarity and free my mind. Okay, okay, perhaps it was just about freeing some space and removing a dirty windshield. Whatever...

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Boom, like magic, all done....

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I was now free to move about the cabin....

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So I did so and removed an otherwise annoying piece of the dash simply because I could....

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sssexxx
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 18 Mar 2013 16:36

So, after I began to felt like I had some momentum, I mustered up the courage to tackle the rear end in much the same way. Truth be told, I may have been avoiding my fears in handling the front and rear subframe. I had never taken one apart before. I thought it was complicated and extremely heavy. I kept envisioning that I would drop the car on myself and have to resort to begging my Indian neighbor to save my life, but this hypothetical was based on the idea that he spoke english and knew I wasn't recreationally lifting a car like they do on those Ironman ESPN shows. Damn it!! This was going to be ESPN's fault. Damn I was scared.

Back on point...

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Then, before I knew it, all at once Project Miracle Whip was glass-less.....

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Next up on the challenges to conquer, aka "avoiding jacking the car and a potential near death" was the dash....

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sssexxx
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 18 Mar 2013 16:37

Ah the dash. Perhaps it was my fear of the subframe, the looming deadline to completion, or just my overall lack of breaking to ingest anything besides Diet Coke but this got frustrating really quickly. When I took a step back, actually read my manual, searched on Ratsun, and took a deep breathe I came to the conclusion that I was and idiot and that the bezels fo the switches screwed off. Talk about making this one a lot easier after....

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I used countless expletives trying to get the steering column out. I was afrait to damage the firewall because I could see it flexing as I cussed and pulled and twisted. So I resided to let it stay and hang out for a bit until I could google me some answers. So I decided it was time to man up and get her on jackstands. I had to conquer this fear of being crushed sooner or later right?

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As I peered down into the empty shell, I almost felt like I had made a dent in disassembly...

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I began to mentally gain confidence and figured "hey, if I die under a Datsun, there are way worse ways to go right?" So I stood back and took one last glorious look at her booty in the air...

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Then I quickly shattered my own confidence when I gazed over to the left and had the fear of the Datsun God's shot inside me. "How the hell am I going to put all this back together? What the hell do I know about car building? It looks like my car exploded in to neatly organized piles with labels. I am pretty sure that there is some country out there where they give you this as a torture method. Am I going to be selling all this on eBay because I am the world's most retarded mechanic?"

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I slapped myself out of it and decided not to look in that direction until it was time to clean up. I decided there wasn't room in this garage for both the front subframe and me. One of us had to go.....

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sssexxx
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 18 Mar 2013 16:37

Feeling good about my new found skill and dominance of the front subframe, I decided it was time I kicked that steering column's ass. I was tired of this rusty stick dictate my life. I also still had lingering doubts about my ability to handle the rear subframe...

Steering Column 0
Chris 1

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Roaming around the carcass of what use to be a car, I took a step back again to see what I had done these last few hours...

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Then came my nemisis. The Joker to my Batman. The darkside of my force...

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sssexxx
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 18 Mar 2013 16:38

So, basically when taking apart the rear subframe there are six bolts on the top of the two rear shock tower mounts. Two more bolts on the cross-member and then two last ones in the mustache bar that hold the rear differential in place. A couple of brake lines and you are done. It is really that simple. Well, in theory anyway. Up to this point I had been extremely fortunate. Not one rusted or stripped bolt had slowed done my progress. I was so happy too. I needed every lucky break I got because it was 2pm and the car was to be picked up by 4pm. I left the mustache bar bolts in and cleared through everything else. Fatigue, hungry, hours of consecutive work were not helping either i'm sure. The mustache bar bolts stripped and I thought all was lost.

In a rage of anger and frustration I decided to get a Diet Coke and lay down on the street in front of my garage in the sun. As I got hotter and hotter I remembered seeing someone heat a rusted bolt up and then it unbolted like magic. I don't exactly qualify as a mechanical expert, but I figured I had two choices. Accept defeat and disappoint the King of Datsuns or man up, take a risk and make it happen. I chose the second option. Shockingly, it actually worked. I have no idea how or why, I just know it did...

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Finally, after hours of work and about six lifetimes worth of experience, she was ready to be sent off for a proper rotisserie restoration...

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She was loaded up and prepped with the help of some of the nicest people I have met in a very long time. I do not want to disclose who the car went to until I get his official permission to let anyone know. Also, if you have an idea, please do not call him and tell him that you know me or I sent you unless you actually talk to me privately first.

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Then, it was off to clean the garage. Ever wonder what a Datsun looks like in a garage without a body? Well, here you go...

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Now it is time for a couple of days of research before I begin to tackle the rear and front subframes. Anyone and everyone with advice, please help any way you can. I love hearing how I can or could do things better. I'm still learning every day!!

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okayfine
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby okayfine » 18 Mar 2013 17:38

Lots of ways to do things, but we kinda need to know what you want to do (i.e. what you want the car to do, what you want to use it for, etc.).

The basics, though, are that the front crossmember needs to be flipped (plenty of how-to's here, or there's always DQ), you're going to need bigger brakes (280ZX struts work well), you're going to want at least an R160LSD, if not an R180 (depending on your driving style, desired gearing, etc.), perhaps a rear disc conversion (though not strictly necessary), embiggen the exhaust hole in the crossmember, slot or otherwise (Byron's brackets) make adjustable your rear crossmember.

Beyond that, what do you want out of it?
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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shacks510
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby shacks510 » 18 Mar 2013 22:39

My Datsun senses are tingling!

sssexxx
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 19 Mar 2013 00:43

okayfine wrote:Lots of ways to do things, but we kinda need to know what you want to do (i.e. what you want the car to do, what you want to use it for, etc.).

The basics, though, are that the front crossmember needs to be flipped (plenty of how-to's here, or there's always DQ), you're going to need bigger brakes (280ZX struts work well), you're going to want at least an R160LSD, if not an R180 (depending on your driving style, desired gearing, etc.), perhaps a rear disc conversion (though not strictly necessary), embiggen the exhaust hole in the crossmember, slot or otherwise (Byron's brackets) make adjustable your rear crossmember.

Beyond that, what do you want out of it?


I have been acquiring parts for a very long time. If you check out the Ratsun build, you can see all of them. I want the car to be a safe, quick weekend driver. I am not a racer or anything like that. The plan was to build a highly modified sr20det s13 engine and get it in the car for reliable drive-ability, but the more I researched the more I knew I needed to think about safety first. I picked up an Autopower roll cage, Wilwood 4 pot front and 2 pot rear brakes, and then turned my focus toward acquiring suspension parts. I found a deal on a new in box Datsport front suspension kit (with crossmember) and picked that up. I am running the 280zx struts, but Baz and co. have let me know how to work around the clearance issues with this combo. My immediate focus is understanding the rear suspension better. I am looking at rear crossmembers but have yet to grasp the difference between a slotted version and an adjustable one. I plan on Ermish rear clovers to pair with my front ones. I want to have the suspension ready to bolt in when the car returns. I have a ton of NOS parts already, but am obviously on the hunt for a few items still.

I really just want a beautiful car I can enjoy driving briskly up the coast on the weekends, to events, and I most of all want to learn more about the car by doing a lot of the work myself. My mom and dad both had Datsuns as a first car. This pays homage to them.

Oh and I have a GT2860RS .64 A/R or a "disco potato," but am thinking about a GT2871. It is a bit slower on the spool up, but can squeeze out a bit more HP when and if I'm ever ready for it. So, with that in mind, I was hoping to find a good quality R200 for out back.

I am no expert and this is the extent of my car knowledge. I have been lurking and reading here since 2009. I wish I could say I'm confident in my work, but I'm not. I make a lot of mistakes. But I am relentless and patient.

sssexxx
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 19 Mar 2013 00:44

shacks510 wrote:My Datsun senses are tingling!


From excitement? Or have you figured out my paint/body situation?

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okayfine
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby okayfine » 19 Mar 2013 06:44

sssexxx wrote:I am looking at rear crossmembers but have yet to grasp the difference between a slotted version and an adjustable one.


A slotted rear crossmember IS adjustable. Byron's brackets give you adjustability as well, as does a Penultimate, or the Datsport brackets. It comes down to how much adjustability you want, and how easily you want that adjustability to be usable.

The Penultimate will give other benefits (ability to use urethane rear a-arm bushings, 1" higher rear pivot location (better for lowered cars)).

Byron's brackets have been detailed here a bunch, obviously.

Slotting is bum-basic and can be done in a careful hour or two, and does get the job done all the same.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

sssexxx
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Joined: 11 Feb 2013 15:38

Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 19 Mar 2013 11:51

okayfine wrote:
sssexxx wrote:I am looking at rear crossmembers but have yet to grasp the difference between a slotted version and an adjustable one.


A slotted rear crossmember IS adjustable. Byron's brackets give you adjustability as well, as does a Penultimate, or the Datsport brackets. It comes down to how much adjustability you want, and how easily you want that adjustability to be usable.

The Penultimate will give other benefits (ability to use urethane rear a-arm bushings, 1" higher rear pivot location (better for lowered cars)).

Byron's brackets have been detailed here a bunch, obviously.

Slotting is bum-basic and can be done in a careful hour or two, and does get the job done all the same.


Thank you for taking the time out to help me. I really appreciate it and I have done a ton of reading on this where I have noticed you have covered the topic a myriad of times. I know it can be frustrating when people can do their own search, but just expect someone to bring them the knowledge.

From what I can tell, most kits that are fairly priced are DIY projects. My problem is that I have not learned to weld yet and do not want to start on such an integral piece of the car. So it is either find someone who is reliable with Datsun experience and can weld the DIY kit up for me or find a complete piece like what Datsport offers. That Datsport kit is appealing because I have their sr20 front kit with xmember, links, sway bar, etc. But the cost is so prohibitive. Datsport does offer a DIY kit. The instuctrions appear pretty detailed and straight forward, so a happy medium may be to have a local Datsun guy who knows what he is doing mount that kit up for me.

Here is what I am thinking for the rear subframe at the moment. Any and all commentary, opinions, or thoughts welcome and don't be shy...

Datsport DIY Adjustable Rear Crossmember kit
-Also enlarge exhaust opening for 3" exhaust.
Recondition my rear control arms.
-Need to research what modification may be necessary.
New wheel studs
New bearing kit
New bushings
Troy Emerish rear coilovers
R200 Diff
Mustache Bar
-Still researching
Wolf Creek Racing Half Shaft & Axel Kit
-Still looking for cheaper alternatives as this car won't be tracked

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okayfine
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby okayfine » 19 Mar 2013 13:29

sssexxx wrote:From what I can tell, most kits that are fairly priced are DIY projects. My problem is that I have not learned to weld yet


The Penultimate crossmember plans are detailed in DQ, but they also do a finished crossmember, with core exchange.

sssexxx wrote:Recondition my rear control arms.
-Need to research what modification may be necessary.


You may want to look into reinforcing the shock bolt on the rear arms. The a-arms aren't getting younger, and some have experienced failure at this point for various reasons. A couple of people here have documented the reinforcing, which mainly consists of adding plate over and welding up.

sssexxx wrote:Wolf Creek Racing Half Shaft & Axel Kit
-Still looking for cheaper alternatives as this car won't be tracked


There's a DIY option, if you can get ahold of a set of Mattndew's CV adapters. An entire writeup in DQ, and at least one entire thread about it here. Depending on what you can source parts for (CVs, axles), you can end up with a half-cost kit. Matt's adapters use Type-II CVs, Wolf Creek uses 930 bits. Which you go with mostly has to do with how much torque you're eventually looking at (though the 930 CVs also allow greater angularity). If you're already thinking R200 (generally considered overkill for a stockish SR/T) then 930s may be more your speed.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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shacks510
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby shacks510 » 19 Mar 2013 20:34

sssexxx wrote:
shacks510 wrote:My Datsun senses are tingling!


From excitement? Or have you figured out my paint/body situation?


Exitement! I've followed a lot of build threads from start to finish, and I've been blown away every time. The '68 being my favorite year in terms of unique things, and it's a four-door getting some attention, I'm realy eager to see what the finished product is.

I wasn't digging the idea of an SR20 '68, but the amount of neglegence this car has seen in its life, anything is better than how I've seen it.

My dream car is a bone stock '71 four-door, so I love to see other peoples to get ideas. I would never directly copy someone elses car, but maybe pick pieces from other peoples cars, and put them into one. The mental picture I have of my (hopefully future) car is pretty sweet! But I have to get the car first... SOMEBODY doesn't see any value in it, because it's a stocker, and would need a lot of money put into it to make it a decent car. I keep saying that the expressed statement from that individual is false, but I apparently "Don't know anything" so my dreams, statements, and opinions are voided. Yes, it would take a lot of money to make this car to what I would like it to be, but it would all be done by me, so I have piece of mind when things are done, and not buying a car from someone else that could potentially be "buying someones problem." All the fun is building it yourself, isn't it? Who knows, I might just get the car and drive it exactly how it is, and appreciate it for what it is; a driving 510.


I didn't want to post these anywhere, but this is the four-door I want. 1971, all original, body, swapped L16, on the column automatic. SSS appearance package; only a small portion remains, but does not have a SSS steering wheel. Minimal rust, very solid car. I've driven it too. The owner is a very nice guy.
Last edited by shacks510 on 14 Jan 2014 22:42, edited 2 times in total.

sssexxx
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby sssexxx » 20 Mar 2013 14:44

@okayfine - Penultimate piece with core exchange may be perfect for my needs and skill set! I will do a search and try to find more about their services before going the Datsport route. Once again, thank you so much!!! I can't tell you how helpful this is to a guy like me.

@shacks510 - That is a beautiful car my friend. Pick her up ASAP before someone who doesn't appreciate it as much as you do finds a way to snatch it. Nothing aggravates me more than a kid who gets in to Japanese Nostalgia and does nothing but destroy a car without doing the research to have it done right. I am a victim of my own ignorance in that regard and I should have done more research and done things right. At least I was lucky and smart enough to put a stop to it before things got too bad.

I have learned that having a plan of attack is the best way to really complete a project like this. I need some opinions on if I am headed in the right direction. Breaking it down in to section by section learning and building helps me not to feel too overwhelmed.

So I plan to break down the rear subframe next and begin acquiring the right parts to rebuild it on a furniture dolly. I want to have it ready to bolt in when the car comes in. I also want to send all the necessary hardware out for cadmium coating or is it better to just try and source new hardware?

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okayfine
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Re: Project Miracle Whip - 1968 510 4door s13 sr20det

Postby okayfine » 20 Mar 2013 14:59

sssexxx wrote:I also want to send all the necessary hardware out for cadmium coating or is it better to just try and source new hardware?


Been a few discussions about this. In the end if you have a big batch of hardware to get plated, getting it done makes sense. If you have just the hardware for the rear crossmember, lets say, the shop charges won't pencil out versus new stuff. But, then, some of that rear stuff you can't get new, like the cupped washers.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14871&hilit=plating&start=45#p209986
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson


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