2 Door 510, S15 conversion

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two_68_510s
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby two_68_510s » 28 Feb 2015 17:58

muvro wrote:The 510 was bought locally, but it is originally from the U.S.

I've built and restored a lot of cars, but this was by far the most unmolested and original car I've come across for it's age.


Not anymore !! :wink: :lol: :lol:

Never fear, I am no stranger to mods, great stuff.
Joel

2 '68 510 2 door sedans
'95 240SX
74 Jensen Healey

“We will either find a way, or make one.” – Hannibal

muvro
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby muvro » 28 Feb 2015 18:24

two_68_510s wrote:
Not anymore !! :wink: :lol: :lol:

Never fear, I am no stranger to mods, great stuff.


LOL

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icehouse
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby icehouse » 01 Mar 2015 00:27

Aww Australia you guys don't really go low either so that would help fitting the rear suspension.

Byron the S13/14/15 skyline 300x (Z32) Q45 and I'm sure others all used the same rear suspension. Fancy multi link rear suspension. It's like 6" wider than 510 rear suspension hub to hub isn't it?
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

muvro
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby muvro » 01 Mar 2015 01:56

icehouse wrote:Aww Australia you guys don't really go low either so that would help fitting the rear suspension.

Byron the S13/14/15 skyline 300x (Z32) Q45 and I'm sure others all used the same rear suspension. Fancy multi link rear suspension. It's like 6" wider than 510 rear suspension hub to hub isn't it?



Yeah, it's not gonna be scraping tar, as it has to be engineered. Lowest part of the car can be no less than 100mm. Besides that, it's going to see occasional circuit work and super low does mr necisarily mean better handling.

Pedro
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby Pedro » 01 Mar 2015 19:48

Based on your description did the car used to be orange? Bought from around Dural area?

Looks like it's getting some serious custom work done, interested to see how you guy with the suspension setup, should look awesome.

muvro
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby muvro » 01 Mar 2015 21:07

Pedro wrote:Based on your description did the car used to be orange? Bought from around Dural area?

Looks like it's getting some serious custom work done, interested to see how you guy with the suspension setup, should look awesome.


Yes it was orange, but it was bought from the Northern beaches in Sydney. It may have come from dural before then though.

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icehouse
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby icehouse » 02 Mar 2015 00:44

muvro wrote:
icehouse wrote:Aww Australia you guys don't really go low either so that would help fitting the rear suspension.

Byron the S13/14/15 skyline 300x (Z32) Q45 and I'm sure others all used the same rear suspension. Fancy multi link rear suspension. It's like 6" wider than 510 rear suspension hub to hub isn't it?



Yeah, it's not gonna be scraping tar, as it has to be engineered. Lowest part of the car can be no less than 100mm. Besides that, it's going to see occasional circuit work and super low does mr necisarily mean better handling.



That's true, slammed isn't always best for handling. Although if you are doing a suspension swap things can be corrected, only within your design envelope though. Back seat requires compromising the rear suspension and the engine compromises the front..

4"....... That's like a lifted 510! :)

It's so crazy what you guys all go through. I feel so lucky. The northwest has basically zero rules for me to follow with my car, no emissions, no engineering, no engine size limits.
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

muvro
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby muvro » 02 Mar 2015 04:09

Yeah, exactly right. Also as it's predominately a road car, clearance is important.

We don't have to do too much for engineers cert. just has to comply with the emissions standards of the beer of the two parts. ie, if the engine is newer, we follow the envisions for that. If the body is newer, we have to adhere to the emissions if when it was built. So easy for S15 conversion, just have to fit all the emissions equipment from the donor car. It's quite a hindrance with some of the rules when building a car here, but the rules are pretty realistic and are there to stop bodgy work that can endanger the lives of innocent by-standers. But it would be nice to have no limitations. The mind boggles with ideas... Lol

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S15DET
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby S15DET » 02 Mar 2015 04:47

I've seen a few projects that take this approach; grafting subframes from car A into the body of car B. In fact, I have both front and rear subframes from an FD RX7 (same wheelbase as our 510) at home because this was my original idea. I've always been concerned when car A has a different wheelbase as car B. In your case, car A has a 99" wheelbase and car B has a 95.3" wheelbase. This would cause a change in the roll center axis among other things. Have you made plans to alter the geometry slightly to correct this, or do you feel it's not going to be a problem. How are you going to go about determining the exact mounting height (Z axis) for each subframe or crossmember, this was the sticking point for me? When I discussed this with a friend who's a GM suspension engineer, I was led do believe this isn't a good idea, I'm curious to hear your thoughts, since you're going through with it.

Looking forward to see how it turns out, you're off to a great start!

muvro
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby muvro » 02 Mar 2015 05:22

S15DET wrote:I've seen a few projects that take this approach; grafting subframes from car A into the body of car B. In fact, I have both front and rear subframes from an FD RX7 (same wheelbase as our 510) at home because this was my original idea. I've always been concerned when car A has a different wheelbase as car B. In your case, car A has a 99" wheelbase and car B has a 95.3" wheelbase. This would cause a change in the roll center axis among other things. Have you made plans to alter the geometry slightly to correct this, or do you feel it's not going to be a problem. How are you going to go about determining the exact mounting height (Z axis) for each subframe or crossmember, this was the sticking point for me? When I discussed this with a friend who's a GM suspension engineer, I was led do believe this isn't a good idea, I'm curious to hear your thoughts, since you're going through with it.

Looking forward to see how it turns out, you're off to a great start!


I haven't done the exact measurements and calculations for the roll centers yet and therefor don't have anything for the roll center axis. In saying that, if I stay as true to the S15 setup as possible and set it up correctly, I can't see reducing the wheelbase by a bit under 4" is going to make that much of a noticeable difference to the average driver. In saying that, I will be altering the geometry in the front end and that will effect the roll center, as the angle of the front struts will be laying over a bit more than on a standard S15 by approx 10-15mm further in. Camber will be corrected at the hub, and I will be setting the control arm angle to compensate for the extra strut angle to keep a good roll center height as close to a S15 that has been lowered about 40mm (I've been told this height works well for them, but I have to do my own research on this to ensure this is the correct height to aim for.)

I've pulled the engine and front suspension assembly out of the donor, I've removed the 510 radius rod mounting points and the front suspension unit is ready to be raised into position with motor mounted. So I'll get some measures and get it all worked out. I'm no suspension guru, but I should have it covered.

I'm keen to hear input from people with suspension setup experience to hear a few different opinions on the setup.

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dodgydan
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby dodgydan » 02 Mar 2015 11:54

in shortening the wheel base, will that not effect the scrub radius? when turning tight corners, won't it cause your front tires to be on different radius and effect handling and tire wear. :?: you do not see to many old jaguars with roll cages in them here in B.C. like the one in the background of your first pic.
its not the having. its the doing...

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S15DET
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby S15DET » 02 Mar 2015 12:42

It will effect a few things, but I don't think scrub radius is one. Scrub radius is the offset from the "dave point" (the imaginary point where the king pin axis hits the ground, to the center of the contact patch. Maybe you're thinking of Ackermann, because this will be effected by the change in wheelbase, but it's easily adjusted and not terribly important anyway. (EDIT: NOT easily adjusted thinking about it, unless you can move the steering rack fore-aft and up-down easily, which we can't. The ackermann WILL very slightly change with the change in wheelbase, but I stand by the "not terribly important" part of the previous sentence.)

My main question/concern is how muvro will determine "exactly" what height to put the subframe and crossmember? That height will be critical, both in the height relative to each other and relative to the body. If there's an easy way to do that without a mega-bucks flat surface table (which I don't have access to) then I may have to get out my old FD stuff and have another go at it.

muvro
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby muvro » 02 Mar 2015 13:57

It's all about the strut angle and the control arm angle. Get these working together correctly and it gives you the cross member height. Pretty basic, the difficult part is getting the angles to work with each other since one of them is not standard.

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icehouse
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby icehouse » 02 Mar 2015 16:52

Suspension has always interested me because there is no technical "right" way. Yes lots baseline setting but in all reality it almost comes down to personal preference and the type of competition you want to compete in.
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

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bertvorgon
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Re: 2 Door S15 conversion

Postby bertvorgon » 02 Mar 2015 19:38

Exactly! I spent about 5 years playing with so many spring, shock and other settings, to get to what I have now, kinda the perfect " sweet spot", for a balance of handling that suites my driving style, and a competitive car. I have not touched a suspension setting now for 30 years. Is it a perfect setup..likely not for any one discipline, but, it sure works great over a whole range of stuff, smooth, rough and bumpy, decreasing radius corners, solo, road race, etc.. It does one thing well, the rear end NEVER feels like it wants to kill me. That's what gives ME confidence to drive fast.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
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