F20C in a 510

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mroverkill
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 07 Oct 2015 09:07

You only need the dash if you don't loop the VSS wire back into the C101 connector. You need the immobilizer receiver unit and pigtail and the key if you want to keep the immobilizer, but removing the immobilizer from the ECU itself is extremely simple. As far as I can tell all immobilizer wires go through the C101 and ECU A connectors, so you could wire the pigtail from the immobilizer receiver to the corresponding wires on those connectors to keep the immobilizer and honda key. Someone else has put the information on the internet, however I don't really feel comfortable putting a step by step guide out there for anyone to see. If there is someone on this forum who wants to do the swap and can't find the info just shoot me a PM with timestamped pictures of your dime and the engine and I'm willing to help you out.

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Byron510
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby Byron510 » 07 Oct 2015 15:16

I can't help with this build in particular, but I can confirm that VW, Audi and BMW and Ford products all require the gauge cluster plugged in for the car to work - unless somehow defeated as you have noted. I have done many roll cage jobs over the years. Most of those customers strip the interiors of their cars before coming to me to do the cage - usually the dash pad is in the back seat for fitting after the cage fabrication is completed – sometimes the cage dash bar is behind the dash pad if possible. Anyways, to make the cars mobile, usually you have to plug the gauge cluster in or the car won't start - the gauge cluster needs to communicate somehow with the ECU. Your explanation of why makes sense. For me, I’ve never looked into the individualities of each car, because after the dash is fitted around the cage, then it usually all goes back together with the stock gauge cluster anyways.
Hopefully you enlist some help and keep the project going. Promise us this won’t be another cut up 510 with a dream gone bad. There just are not enough of them left to do that with :-( Hopefully you can follow through as mentioned next year and complete the swap and drive the car, as that's what it's all about. Heck - throw the L back in it and drive it like you stole it :-) That usually makes me smile.

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mroverkill
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Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 07 Oct 2015 20:36

Byron, I can only really speak for the F22C from a 2004-2005 MY S2000 as that is what I have in my hands, but I have reason to believe that what I am about to say holds true for the AP1 (2000-2003) cars as well. I don't want to say anything with any certainty about the later cars because they had a revised electrical system.

The stock digital dash has 2 connectors ('Dash A' [20 pin] and 'Dash B' [30 pin]) with 3 wires that are of significant note (the rest are gauges or other indicator feeds). Dash A pins 3 and 4 are immobilizer indicator feed (constant +12) and immobilizer indicator signal respectively. I don't think either of these need to be hooked up for the immobilizer to function properly, but I can't make a positive statement. Looking at some wiring diagrams it looks like the wire from A4 is a switched ground. At worst this one will need to be wired to the immobilizer receiver. Dash B pin 7 is the VSS input. I'll double check when I get to the shop in the morning, but I believe this splits and goes to the C101 and ECU A connectors. Without this circuit being complete (i.e. a connection between C101 and ECU A) the ECU will not run.

Here is a pinout for the dash connectors up to MY 2005


The project will go on. I'm hoping to have the swap "complete" by Thanksgiving. It's optimistic, but I am putting in full 9 hour days 5 days a week. I am not a person who deals well with others and the stress of appeasing the person who is letting me use shop space and tools for free while trying to incorporate the feedback I get from you guys is just too much for me to handle. On top of that I honestly can't work fast enough as it is, and trying to document the build would slow me down too much for me to be ok with it. I also think that because of some of the compromises I am making to maintain the peace in the shop it is probably in the best interest of the board that my fabrication not be well documented for someone to see it as a truly optimal way to perform this swap. It is a result of time and budgetary constrictions, the tools I have at hand, and needing to appease someone that thinks they know everything. My goal is to have the car built so that I can drive it home this winter. I have access to better tools (but smaller shop space) at home where I will also be free of any outside influence. Once home I plan to build a new engine crossmember, modify the steering geometry slightly, and generally clean up the fabrication and do it my way. When I get to doing that I will fully document everything.

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okayfine
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby okayfine » 08 Oct 2015 06:20

Well, you have to do it safety or don't do it at all, and it would be better to trailer the whole setup back home if you're being rushed and doing it half-assed. Engine crossmembers and steering components are some of the last pieces to screw around with unless you know what you're doing.

Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but nearly no one starts their fab learning by completely reworking the engine crossmember.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

mroverkill
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Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 08 Oct 2015 07:36

It will be safe, but it won't be pretty or optimal. My major limitations to doing it the way I want to do it are the tools I'm using, the person I'm borrowing shop space from, and my lack of welding abilities. When I get home I will have better tools, more freedom, and time to practice welding.

The crossmember redesign should be simple. I'll use box tube instead of round tube and alter the routing a little bit. The steering should also be straightforward as I plan to go to a 'trailing rod' setup used by Flaming River to help eliminate the bump steer from an MR2 rack. My largest hinderance in the fabrication once I get home will be my lack of metalworking experience. I have a solid understanding of the forces involved and lots of experience with wood working and plastic fabrication, so I expect that with some time spent perfecting my welding and just working with metal to get a better feel for it I will be able to build a crossmember how I want it to be built.

mroverkill
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Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 23 Oct 2015 19:32

Just a quick update today, guys.

I decided to trailer the car back to Atlanta. Things just weren't working out as I had hoped, and the benefits of going home outweigh the costs to me. Once I get settled out East I will be able to pick up the thread again.

Thanks for your criticism, advice, and support.

mroverkill
Posts: 98
Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 10 Jan 2016 14:23

Howdy again guys. This is just another quick update with a couple pictures. I'm back in Atlanta and have gotten into designing the new crossmember (thanks in large part to Icehouse). It looks like the MR2 rack is actually going to fit really well with the F20C, but I'll wait until I have a final design drawn up to let you guys know exactly how it all works together.

I built a little stand to hold the engine and trans in the air while I take some measurements for the rack.

Image

I also built a small jig to get repeatable measurements on the crossmember. I'm aiming to have a crossmember design modeled by the end of the month.

Image


I also took a quick flight to KEKY which took me over Talladega Superspeedway. I thought you guys might be interested in this picture as the perspective makes the steepness of the banking really clear.

Image

mroverkill
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 21 Jan 2016 17:30

This post got a bit long as I was writing it, so here is an abbreviated version:

Ground Control coilovers don't fit our cars very well. Many people I've talked to had serious clearance issues and I ran into issues with both the lower spring cup impacting the hub and the shock body and spring impacting the inner fenderwell. While Ground Control's customer service is quick and responsive they are unable to provide solutions to stuff not fitting and will reject your return for damaged caused by the part not fitting in your application. They will, however, pay to ship the rejected return back to you.


A few months back I bought a pair of Ground Control rear coilovers for my 510. I ordered directly through GC; they arrived promptly and well packaged.

It was all great until I actually tried to install the coilovers in my car. The first problem arose when I tried to find some instructions for the installation since it was my first time doing any real suspension work and I didn't want to build an unsafe system. Apparently there are no instructions for people in my situation (or anyone else, for that matter). Since I didn't find any instructions that said otherwise I installed the coilovers in the most straightforward way I could think of (It's a simple system, or should be).

I installed one side of the tapered rubber bushings on the lower damper mount (cast into the hub), slid the lower eye of the damper unit onto the lug, then put the other tapered bushing on the outside and bolted it up. I then jacked the hub up while guiding the upper stud into the upper shock mount hole, then tightened the upper shock mount. Once I had installed the dampers I found that the lower spring cup made significant impact with the hub at full droop. I reasoned that as the wheel travels through normal ride height and into bump the spring cup should pivot more inboard and clear the hub, so I tested this theory. The spring cup did rotate, but not enough to actually clear the hub. I also ran into the issue of the spring impacting the 'lip' formed by the joint between trunk floor and fender well panels, as well as the shock body itself hitting the inside of the fender. These clearance issues present themselves as safety issues in my mind so I contacted Ground Control. They informed me that they had never had any reported issues, and informed me of some nuances of the install (Namely that the tapered bushings are not symmetrical and that the taller bushing should be placed towards the outside of the car). Why they would have asymmetrical bushings without making clear which part goes where is beyond me. I tried swapping which bushing I had towards the outside of the car, but nothing fixed either of the clearance issues. I also double and triple checked for any signs that my car had been hit in the rear or had any modifications done to the swing arm and crossmember, but could find none (I seriously sat under the car for half an hour at one point trying to find any reason that this stuff shouldn't fit, but I couldn't). Ground Control was very quick to respond to my issues, and spent a lot of time working with me to resolve them, even shipping me a set of bushings with extra offset to push the coilover towards the inside of the car to clear the cup. These made the hub clearance issues less severe, but forced the spring and shock body into the Inner Fender Well even more. It is important to mention at this point that I installed the other coilover on the Driver's side and while it had some issues clearing the hub and was very very close to the fender well at full droop it was worlds better than the passenger's side.

At this point I needed the car to roll so I could ship it from Colorado to Georgia, I informed Ground Control of my decision to install the coilovers even with the clearance issues just to have a rolling chassis. They didn't voice any concerns and I put the issue on hold until I unloaded the car at its new home. When I got the car off the trailer I verified that the clearance issues were still a problem at normal ride height (22" from the ground to the top of the wheel arch at the passenger's rear) by pressing on the corner of the car. As the suspension traveled through an inch or two of bump you could hear distinct scraping sound (I assume from the shock body impacting the inner fender well) and a clunk that I assume was the spring hitting (and then eventually going around) the seam lip. I informed Ground Control of the fact that the issues persisted with all combinations of the bushings I had been provided with and requested a return. I was given an RMA number and packaged up the parts to be shipped out. This was right during the holiday rush, and I wasn't as meticulous as I should have been with the packing, so the box got damaged in transit. As soon as GC saw the damaged box they told me my return would be refused and there was nothing to be done (I had paid for the return shipping, their return policy is 30 days and allows for prepaid return freight but I did not want to make a big deal about paying for the return shipping because I was over 30 days due to the move in the middle of trying to make the part fit). They did, however, attempt to fit the coilovers to their in-house test car. Ground Control received my parts on December 22nd, they sent me pictures of a single coilover installed on their car the next day. (Now that I have the parts in hand I've ascertained that they installed the coilover that fit for me, but did not install the one that did not fit ( I can tell because there was a difference in the printing of the spring part number between the coilovers)). They also claimed that because the parts were damaged during shipping (their words) they would not be able to accept the return. I asked for detailed pictures of the damage on the 23rd, and did not receive them until January 13th at which point I was sent pictures of damage caused by the parts not fitting. I requested that my parts be returned to me, and they were returned promptly [02/01/2016 Edit:] at my cost (which hardly seems reasonable). Overall the experience left a bad taste in my mouth.


My experience combined with discussion with others who have had clearance issues with GC coils in our cars and PoorMtnKid's measurements of shock travel lead me to believe that these parts are not well engineered for our cars and for that reason I will not be purchasing any GC products from this point forward. I realize that this post got a bit long and isn't very clear, so I'm happy to answer any questions that arise.
Last edited by mroverkill on 31 Jan 2016 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Byron510
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby Byron510 » 21 Jan 2016 20:25

How about posting photos of the installation interferences / issues?

Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.

mroverkill
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Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 21 Jan 2016 21:32

Byron,

I was actually looking for the pictures I took while trying to troubleshoot the issue, but they seem to have been lost in a phone reset. I do have some pictures of the damage which I have included below:

Image
Here you can see the damage done to the lower spring cup by the hub itself.

Image
Damage to the spring from impact with the body lip.

Image
Damage to the upper spring cup from rubbing on the inner fender well.


That's really all I have, there is some additional damage to the shock body, but I'm not sure if that happened due to the fitment issues or from my own error during installation, so I don't want to include that here.

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icehouse
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby icehouse » 21 Jan 2016 22:20

I have a car in my garage with those coilovers I'll check it out. I've always had to pound the sheet metal lip in that you are talking about.
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

mroverkill
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 21 Jan 2016 22:52

Interesting.

The damage seems to have been confined to one of the two coilovers I received, the other one fit much better on the driver's side of my car and the passenger's side of the GC test car. It almost seems like it's a manufacturing error of some sort in the other coilover, but something like that would be fairly noticeable to cause the amount of offset I was seeing.

At the end of the day, exclusive of my fitment issues, I really wasn't happy with the GC design after reading PoorMtnKid's writeup. I think I'm going to buy a pair of Troy Ermish or TechnoToy units to replace these. I will see about clearance to that lip when I get them in.

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JordanTr
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby JordanTr » 21 Jan 2016 23:12

Yeah mine scrape there too. Custom built 2.5" ID springs on old KYB rally shocks.
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

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icehouse
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby icehouse » 22 Jan 2016 08:22

I wouldn't buy T3 coilovers, I have them on my car and the adjustment knob does nothing.
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

mroverkill
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Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 22 Jan 2016 10:54

icehouse wrote:I wouldn't buy T3 coilovers, I have them on my car and the adjustment knob does nothing.



Good to know, I'll stay away from them, then. Thanks for the info on your custom setup, Jordan. Maybe the scraping is just a symptom of trying to fit a spring where it shouldn't go.


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