F20C in a 510

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mroverkill
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Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 27 Jul 2015 11:56

Howdy folks (and Byron, I know you've been waiting for this). I picked up my 510 this morning and figured this would be as good a time as any to start my build thread. There will be a rather slow start to the build since I can't do much without a donor s2000, but that will hopefully be coming in the next few weeks. If anyone has any leads on a running but totaled s2000 (pre 2006) please let me know.

Since this build is going to be pretty long and picture intensive here is a link to every picture in the thread.

I bought this '71 2 door sight unseen for $3300. I happened to check craigslist where I would be working on it (1500 miles from home) and saw it listed for $4000 in daily driver condition. The seller sent me some pictures of some problem rust areas and I talked him down to $3500. When my friend went to pick it up he saw some rust that didn't sound like what had been presented to me so the seller knocked another 200 off.

When I picked the car up the rust looked a little worse than what I saw in the pictures, but miles better than what I could have gotten for the price back East. You could probably sell this car as it sits for $5000 in Atlanta. I removed some stickers the previous owner had put on the car and have driven it all day. The car is tons of fun, practically a go-kart when it comes to handling. I'm looking forward to the f20c though.

Pictures from the parking lot:

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The rear left rocker and quarter are the only places that have rusted through. The trunk is remarkably solid even with the battery relocated there.

I think the car has been in some sort of front end collision, the bumper is split in the center and the core support looks pushed in on the right side. It doesn't look to major to me, and the car drives well right now, so I'll worry about it once the car is running on the new engine.


Reference links:
Robert's Imports F20C 510 build pics

Purple F20C 510 thread

Another poorly documented F20C 510

F20C AE86 bible. Lots of info and documentation.

Stock F20C ECU info for swaps

F20C wiring info for AE86

Google drive link to '06-07 S2000 wiring diagrams

Discussion of wiring for the s2000 motor swapped into a BMW 2002
Last edited by mroverkill on 23 Sep 2015 09:02, edited 2 times in total.

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okayfine
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby okayfine » 27 Jul 2015 12:49

Pretty typical rust for a 510. If that's all there is, that's not bad these days. Looking forward to a documented F20 build.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

mroverkill
Posts: 97
Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 27 Jul 2015 16:08

That's what I figured, when I sell the drive train I figure I'll be in it for around 2500 and the rust is relatively confined and minimal.

I hope to be able to document everything. I've found a few sites that are of some help, most outline swaps into an AE86, but I found one with pictures during engine fitment. Unfortunately the link is on my home computer so I can't get to it at the moment, but it will be in this thread when I can get to it.

I also plan to fully document how I sourced everything and what it cost me so that people can have a better understanding of the costs associated with the project. By my estimation of you can do 100% of the fab work yourself and only need to buy a new driveshaft it should cost you under $6000 to go from the car I bought to a datsun with an F20C. My budget will be more because I can't fab a header and may need professional help to get the car done in the timeframe I am hoping for, but if you had time and knowledge it is not prohibitively expensive.

mroverkill
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Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 27 Jul 2015 16:11

Here is the link I talked about earlier.
http://www.robertsimports.com/gallery/datsun_f20c.html

mroverkill
Posts: 97
Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 01 Aug 2015 16:34

I had a chance to take the car to a local autocross event today, my first time with any sort of high performance driving. It was a great experience, I really drove the balls off the car and improved nearly 12 seconds over 6 runs. The event was put on by the local PCA regions so I got to beat everyone who was babying their boxsters and 911s around the lot while I had no qualms about slamming my 510 around. My joke for the day whenever the instructors used to Porsches got in my car was that I didn't have PSM (Porsche Stability Management) I have SSM (Solex Stability Management) because my car has some fuel delivery issues in right hand turns. My initial thought is that the problems are a float adjustment issue, but the engine will be coming out within the month so I'm not going to worry about it.

In other news I bought an S2000. It's a 2005 model with 101000 miles, sever front right suspension damage, but the engine compartment is pristine. I went with a 2005 because the AP2 transmission (2004 or newer) uses carbon syncros instead of brass that handle abuse a bit better and gears 1-5 are shorter with 6th being taller compared to the AP1 units. The F22C engines also have better machined blocks than the F20C and better midrange power at the expense of 1000 redline rpm.

Pictures will come when the car is delivered

mroverkill
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Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 07 Aug 2015 23:42

The donor car showed up today. It was an ordeal getting it off the trailer. The shipping company didn't inform me I would need a forklift and the driver was very adamant that his trailer not get damaged by us pulling the car out.

The entire right side suspension of the s2000 had been ripped out in the crash so we jacked it up from the rear fender well with an 8x8 and wedged a 4x4 under the frail rail to protect the trailer. Then we yanked it out with a truck. Once it was off the trailer we called the recovery company whose trucks we service and had them pick up the rear end of the car so we could slide a dolly under it. The car starts and revs well, we'll see the damage when I start to strip it out in the next couple weeks.

The buying experience was... Interesting. I purchased the car from an IAA auction through usaautomarket. Due to regulations on the sale of salvage titled vehicles I had to go through a broker. The broker (usaautomarket) charged me a $200 fee and were helpful throughout the buying process.

I had originally been the highest bidder at $3000, but the seller of the car apparently wanted more as they reposted the car with a $3900 buy it now. I had budgeted $3500 for the donor before fees, but made the decision that the extra $400 was worth not sitting around for an extra month or two waiting for a donor.

My total cost for the donor car was $5585 to my door ($3900 car cost, $541 auction fees, $200 broker fees, $944 shipping from CA to CO). A little pricy but if you have time on your side and live in a state that allows public salvage auctions you could cut that down to around $3500 total.

Here is a picture of the donor car. Image

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JordanTr
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Location: Langley, BC, Canada

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby JordanTr » 08 Aug 2015 23:08

Very nice. You should be able to make back a lot of that cost parting the S2k out!
Jordan | '72 2 door KA project | '94 240sx RB26DETT | '97 Silvia RB25DET | '90 Audi 90 Quattro 20V (DD)

mroverkill
Posts: 97
Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 10 Sep 2015 19:50

Howdy fellas,

Sorry for the delay in updates, not much progress has been made that you guys would want to hear about until today.

The S2000 got stripped out (a shop manual or Shipley subscription is an invaluable resource) and the 510 rolled into the shop Tuesday.

The first step is obviously to yank the engine out of the 510. Once the L18 was out of the way I dropped the F22C into the engine bay to get an idea for what would need to be moved and removed. The engines are rather similar in dimensions, but have a few key differences that pose some real challenges.

1) The F22C exhausts on the right side of the engine, it is impossible to get the engine as far back as it needs to be with the stock steering gear and stock header. We removed the header from the F22C.

2) The F22C has a front sump. This is an obstacle faced in the more common SR20 swap and is usually addressed by flipping or notching the crossmember. Unfortunately the F22C has a sump strategically position to occupy the entire longitudinal depth of the 510 crossmember. The block is also much wider than the L series block meaning that there is almost no room to adapt the stock mount outriggers to the F22C mounts. Our solution is to remove the crossmember, cut the center section and mount outriggers (preserving the frame mounts and control arm mounts) and fabricate a new crossmember that clears the pan and allows for the mounting of a custom rack and pinion. I will provide pictures of the new crossmember and rough dimensions once we get everything fitted. Down the line I plan to provide technical drawings for all of the custom fabrication in the swap.

3) The steering linkage is very much in the way, the relay rod is too high, the idler arm obstructs the exhaust, etc. I had already been hoping for a custom rack and pinion setup, and between the crossmember issues and these clearance issues it looks like I will be getting my wish earlier.


That's about it for now, I'll try to grab a picture at the end of the day tomorrow. Try to have another car to use while your car is down during this project. Nearly 8 miles uphill all the way on a bike is not fun after 10 hours of fighting bolts.

mroverkill
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Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 12 Sep 2015 09:30

Got a little more done today, pulled out the crossmember, steering linkage, sway bar, struts, hubs, etc.

I also cut the trans tunnel for shifter clearance. I wish I could provide specifics or at least an approximation of where to cut, but it appears that a butcher has had his way with my car in the past. The trans crossmember has been notched, the shifter cutout looks to have been cut going forward of the stock location (SR swap attempt?), and the A-arms look to have been cut at some point. In any case I essentially cut the full width of the top of the trans tunnel around 4 inches back from what I believe to be the stock shifter hole.

We got the engine roughly mocked up on centerline at the height it needs to be for proper drive train angle and to fit under the hood. Some rough estimates show about 1.5-2" of clearance loss without cutting into the firewall.

Here is a picture to keep you occupied:

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okayfine
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby okayfine » 12 Sep 2015 10:23

mroverkill wrote:the shifter cutout looks to have been cut going forward of the stock location (SR swap attempt?)


Typically done for a dogleg 5-speed swap.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

mroverkill
Posts: 97
Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 12 Sep 2015 10:35

okayfine wrote:
mroverkill wrote:the shifter cutout looks to have been cut going forward of the stock location (SR swap attempt?)


Typically done for a dogleg 5-speed swap.


Interesting information, this car has some history that was not revealed to me when I bought it. It had a seemingly stock 4 speed, and the cutout for the 5 speed had been riveted over. Weird.

mroverkill
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Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 15 Sep 2015 18:54

Decided I needed to cut out the trans tunnel and firewall to raise the engine and bring it rearward. Kill me now...

In the process of cutting the trans tunnel I discovered that one of the hard lines running the length of the tunnel takes a hard left forward of the firewall and then ends. No cap, no connections nearby, it just ends. I can't trace it any further back than the rear crossmember, but it seems to run parallel to the rear brake line from it's foremost point to the rearmost point I can see. Any ideas?

Lastly, I was hoping to get the sage advice of those with more experience with 510s than I regarding my ground clearance. Unfortunately the crossmember is not in place, but I tried to get a head on shot of the car to reference the oil pan to the front spring bar (I think that's their name) mounts.

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Do you guys think I will have ample clearance to lower my 510, or do I need to do more butchery, I mean nice surgical sheet metal work?

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Byron510
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby Byron510 » 16 Sep 2015 06:59

The he mystery line is likely an emmisions line that started over on the LH inner fender and initially went back to the evaporative tank. It was a vent from the carburetor.

Byron
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because the opposite never works.

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defdes
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Re: F20C in a 510

Postby defdes » 16 Sep 2015 08:34

The clearance question is a hard one w/out the cross member in, my pan is about 2 1/2" from the ground (FJ20) and I have to remember to be careful, especially on dirt roads. Higher is obviously better to a point when you get interference on the other side.

mroverkill
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Joined: 15 May 2015 17:13
Location: Atlanta

Re: F20C in a 510

Postby mroverkill » 16 Sep 2015 18:04

Byron, that makes a lot of sense. The car has seen an engine swap or three one it's lifetime, I would guess at some point someone just chopped that line off at the firewall.

I appreciate everyone's advice regarding the clearance, I managed to get the engine sitting a little higher, to where the bottom of the oil pan is about 1/4" higher than the bottom of the stock crossmember. The rear of the trans is a little higher than the stock 4 speed, but driveline angles are close enough for me to be comfortable.

Work started today on the engine and transmission crossmembers. The engine crossmember is mocked up and tacked in place with my first attempts at welding. The first weld is simply a large assortment of ugly boogers, the second I managed to actually push a puddle for a little while. I will be taking my tacked hodgepodge to another friend's shop to finalise the design and welding. It is a rather simple affair, I used the ends of the stock crossmember, cut just past the a-arm mounts welded to a 5" piece of flat stock, in turn welded to a 17.6875" length of 1.75" tubing. This setup runs essentially the same path as the stock crossmember, just 2" lower than stock. I will hopefully have the ability to design and build a new subframe in the next year or so that will run in front of and behind the oil pan allowing for higher ground clearance and for mounting a steering rack behind the sump (which is located such that I believe the stock steering gear will run between the bellhousing and sump pan without interference.

Here is a picture of the mocked up crossmember, mounts still need to be made. Any advice/critique of my welding is much appreciated.


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