"Hey" my daily driven race car!

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icehouse
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"Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby icehouse » 21 Dec 2015 22:04

Okay well I switch back and forth daily driving it or my Sunny. I thought I started a thread but I couldn't find it. Had her for about 2 years, maybe more.


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First I installed an L20 Frank gave me. Once again I get tricked. Tons of work and I just ended up pulling it. Before that I changed the timing chain, reassembled, then a few weeks later pulled the head for new valve guide seals, then the rings ended up getting washed out because both carb floats at different times decided to fill with gas and loose there ability to float...


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pulled!


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Had to move the heater hose. Not enough room behind the SR head.


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My favorite primer. SPI epoxy, cheap compared to DP and made in the USA. It sands much nicer to if need be.

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Awww paint!

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Dillon and Frank stopped by to help me get the engine in.


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I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

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icehouse
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby icehouse » 21 Dec 2015 22:17

NOS spray bottle.

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1 1/8th inch sway bar. Nice for handling sucks for installing. I rate it a 7 out of 10. hardware is inch which pisses me off. Brackets need to be modified and I had to use socket head cap screws and they didn't sit flush. Then to make matters even worse the TC rods hit the sway bar during suspension travel............ I added bump stops but under some conditions they still compress enough to hit :(

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T3 coilovers are made for old guys or something... They can be adjusted to stock height but going low is another story. Here is a trick to get 2" more travel. first use Sawzall to remove 2" of material then clean up with the mill.


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Here is IMO the BEST mod you can do to your 510. Byron's brackets and a bigger hole for exhaust. No more rattle and with proper alignment so much increased stability on the freeway! The best part is Byron includes METRIC fasteners. So nice to have to tools to adjust them.


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S13 filler!!


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Cone ate my mirror!!! Luckily Carter has a huge collection of 80's 510 parts and is my mirror sponsor :)

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Ordered some tires!

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To close for comfort!

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racecar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

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RMS
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby RMS » 21 Dec 2015 22:48

great daily!
im happy i decided to stay with the 15/16ths bar as there are rubber and urethane bushings available that fit in the stock brackets.

I wonder if it would be better to mount the tc rod to the bottom of the ca with a little spacer or make up a bar drop bracket like Bert or Byron ?
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!

510rob
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby 510rob » 21 Dec 2015 23:56

put the big brakes onto it.

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mattyhacks71
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby mattyhacks71 » 22 Dec 2015 00:29

Nice color!!!

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Byron510
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby Byron510 » 22 Dec 2015 06:56

Eh Jeff, the sway bar on my car is single plane as well, super simple design as it doesn't need the bends in the middle to go around the oil pan. The trick is building the risers to lower the bar down. The original Tilton parts were simply welded together from plate and relatively thin wall tubing. It worked on the car for 35 years. I machined up the aluminum parts only because I adapted a standard, off the shelf Energy Suspension bushing and bracket to the bottom of the mount as the Tilton bushing was simply worn out. If replacement is ever nessesary, it an easily replaced component. As for fabricating the bar, it's simply 2 bends. So the work is in the stancions themselves.

I thought the car looked great sitting in the driveway a few months back.

Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.

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duke
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby duke » 22 Dec 2015 12:48

Nice choice for tires. I'm always surprised when people build a so called "performance" car and then put shitty tires on it.

I'm wondering if the interference between the sway bar and the T/C rod is due to how low your car is. Once our cars get really low (how you and I like them) suspension clearances can get tight. It may also be due to using aftermarket parts from two different companies. Perhaps let Dave know about this just so that other people can avoid this potentially dangerous interference issue.
Duke Schimmer

'72 2-Door 510
"Simplify and add lightness."

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bertvorgon
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby bertvorgon » 22 Dec 2015 13:04

Yah, I have always laughed when people spend a ton of money on fancy suspension parts, the put some all season Sear's tire on there, so they can get 80,000 miles out of them.

Tires are your connection to the road, through your hands and ass in the seat.

205/50 is a good match for our cars in my opinion, well supported on a 7" rim and with a good sidewall, will give best "feel" in the steering.

Whatever you do, make sure you just NEVER bottom out, even if on the final bump rubber. The bump rubber is for terminal travel on the most severe bump. You can never have PREDICTABLE handling if you are fighting loss of travel, as then you can not know for sure, what tuning do you really need..IE: more roll control, camber, shock, etcetera.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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icehouse
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby icehouse » 22 Dec 2015 21:28

RMS - We have Datsun meetings at work (I myself aren't a mechanical engineer but all the dudes I work with are, and in our group we have 4 Datsun dudes and all rest are gear heads) after finding my issue we talked about exactly what you said as a potential fix. Looking at our 510 suspension under the car and in our 3D model it looks like the TC rod is about perfectly aligned for 100% tension. So we could lower the TC rod mount but it will add stresses not accounted for. The real solution is to make a new bar. Which sucks!

Also we've found with our suspension research that the tie rod binds when the LCA is at almost 15 degrees and the ball joint isn't far behind. That sounds like some crazy angles but really it's not. The shorter struts easily allow our suspension to hit such angles. 5 degrees of LCA angle equals about 1" of wheel travel. Sam's car sitting has an LCA angle of 14 degrees!! Mine has about 8!!! So 1" and stuff isn't happy in my car!

All this means is that once I sort out the sway bar it's off to the next issues. Duke you should check your cars front suspension for binding. Seriously I've done it before and just never noticed because the amount of flex everything has. the only reason we noticed is because we where trying to match our models to the real life setup. after 14 degrees the parabola graphed for our front end jig was flattening compared to the computer model.... haha We've got a few ideas to fix the issue. The one thing about computer models parts don't mind going through other parts :)


Rob - Yes big brakes is a must! After I get the front end scariness sorted out they will be next!

Matty - Thanks! It's OG for the most part. I like the rust and wear. :)

Byron - I will have to go around my front sump pan, still should be pretty simple. I'm really excited to get everything sorted out. With my car as it sits it's such a blast to race. I'm excited to take it further and move up the ranks. :)

Duke - I know! Like my favorite suspension book says "the best upgrade you can do to your car is better tires!" They don't check at our track now since it's the low turnout months but they are going to start making guys with tread wear lower than 200 race in the "race tire class" Which I don't want to be in. My friend who is a super hardcore SCCA auto crosser dude suggested those tires for the "street class". His team won last year in their class on them.

I did talk to Dave when I first installed the bar. I can't remember if I told him how easily it hit the TC rods. I did let him know about the clamps and stupid imperial hardware. Seriously my biggest pet peeve!!!!!! Although out of all the aftermarket 510 stuff I've bought it's all imperial! EXCEPT Byron's rear camber/caster brackets, they are seriously the only part I don't have any complaints about either. Byron please start making more 510 parts :)

Keith - Totally agree. One of the highest HP cars I have ridden in was a Honda. The owner worked at a super reputable shop in tacoma, he had thousands into that build! I was so excited to go for a ride! Every gear I mean every gear pure tire spin. I get back and look at his tires..... Some cheap ass all seasons..... I tried to talk some sense into him. He wouldn't have it. Some people...
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

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bertvorgon
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby bertvorgon » 23 Dec 2015 07:11

I'm watching with great interest as you go through this procedure. I went through this 33 years ago now, and with each successful change, it spurs you on to fix the next issue. Just wait till you go to an even sticky'er tire, which then loads the suspension MORE...which then leads to.......

TALES FROM THE GREAT ROLLING DYNO


I hope you all had a great Christmas and new years! I thought I should let you know what I did over the Holidays. These sort of admissions are hard to do, but, I would rather you heard it from the horse’s mouth so to speak. Over the holidays I decided to finally admit I have a DRUG habit and tried to check myself into the Betty Ford clinic for some rehab.
Arriving at the Vancouver clinic, I was greeted by a very matronly woman, a cross between June Cleaver and Mother Teresa. We proceeded to have the following Conversation:
“Good morning Mister Law, are you here on your own admission?”
“Yes,” I replied.
“Good, good, part of dealing with these problems is first admitting them to yourself.” She said.
“Yes.” I replied.
“Now, what is YOUR particular problem?” she asked.
“Well, I am addicted to SPEED.” I Said .
“Oh my,” she said, “This is serious. How long have you been doing this?”
“Twenty years!” I replied.
“My, you will be a challenge.” She said. “We like challenges.”
“Good, so do I. When I am finished speeding with my friends, I like a good challenge!” I replied.
“Gracious! You do speed in group situations?” She said, sounding slightly alarmed.
“Oh yes, whenever I can!” I replied.
“Really, do you have some sort of long term prescription, or do you get your speed illegally on the street?” She queried.
“Oh, I have a subscription to Circle Track, Car & Driver, and, I try to limit my speeding on the highway.” I replied.
“Whaaa…t?” She says. “Now, now, just what are your symptoms after doing speed for this long?” She asked. “We need to get a handle on exactly what your withdrawal symptoms may be like.”
“Symptoms? Hmmmm. A few days before an event I start to imagine the speed building up on the main straight.” I replied.
“Wow, you’re main lining your speed!?” She said, sounding quite alarmed.
“Whaaa..t?” I said. I was starting to get worried.
“Do you have the classic symptoms while under the influence of speed?” She asked.
“I am not sure what classic is.” I replied. My friends seem to get the same thing. Sweaty palms, excitability, butterflies in the stomach, blurred vision, shortness of breath, the love of feeling the G-forces build, as the car slides into a corner.”
“Whaaa…t!!?” She says. “You drive under the influence of speed?”
“Whaaa..t?” I said, truly concerned now. “How else can you experience true speed if not in a race car!?”
“Whaaa..t?” She says. “What the HELL are you talking about?”
“SPEED! SPEED! Hit the throttle, row it through the gearbox, battle inertia under braking, toss the car into a corner, slide, more throttle, accelerate hard, up through the gears again…..SPEEEED!” I shouted.
“My GOD!!” She screamed. “You’re one of THEM!! You’re incurable. We have tried all sorts of therapy. Gardening, walking, books, sex, and, some even tried that unexciting sport of hockey. All failed. All went back to racing. We have no cure for you, Mr. Law.”
“But, but, now is a good time. I can’t race till spring. My car is on blocks. There is nothing I can do. PLEEAAASSSEEE!!! HHeelp!!!”
“Out! Or I will call a cop!” She spat at me. “You’re ALL the same. The race schedule comes out and the days are all marked on the calendar. Then, the car preparation. Then the new tire purchase. Then that last minute, feverish countdown to the race. Give up, admit defeat, you’re doomed!”
I left. I tried. She’s right.
At least I’m not going down myself. See you in the spring, side by side, flat out in
Fifth gear…… SPEEDING….. AAHH!!!

Sorry for the thread hijack..but...your doomed...
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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icehouse
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby icehouse » 23 Dec 2015 10:14

HAHA!

Yeah I'm doomed!
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby tr6racer21 » 26 Dec 2015 09:48

Jeff,

Did you ever get in touch with Don Oldenberg at Design Products?

Chip

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icehouse
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby icehouse » 27 Dec 2015 19:44

I forgot all about that! Thanks for the reminder!
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

tr6racer21
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby tr6racer21 » 27 Dec 2015 21:05

going that low you will need to have Don modify a front crossmember for you....moving the LCA inner pivot up so that its closer to parallel or even pointing down. Currently as it goes through compression you have positive camber gain. He also provides a nice solution for the t/c rod which moves it up into the bracket a bit and maintains its travel arc. His BRE style sway bar with pillow blocks uses heim joints to attach to the bottom of the LCA avoiding contact with the t/c rod. What is your current spring rate and travel? easy to pull the front wings and check travel....does your tire hit the inner fender before the shock bump stop? Then get some heim jointed tie rods that will allow you to adjust your bump steer....you won't get perfect, but you can make it better.

How do you have the rear setup? Byron's brackets are great...are you using stock bushings? sucking the rear crossmember/mustache bar up into the body helps using poly or solid bushings. You using cut springs or coilovers?....also expect some driveline vibrations with stock axles at that angle. CV axles are in your future.

Let us know what Don has to say....project looking good

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icehouse
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Re: "Hey" my daily driven race car!

Postby icehouse » 28 Dec 2015 10:21

tr6racer21 wrote:going that low you will need to have Don modify a front crossmember for you....moving the LCA inner pivot up so that its closer to parallel or even pointing down. Currently as it goes through compression you have positive camber gain. He also provides a nice solution for the t/c rod which moves it up into the bracket a bit and maintains its travel arc. His BRE style sway bar with pillow blocks uses heim joints to attach to the bottom of the LCA avoiding contact with the t/c rod. What is your current spring rate and travel? easy to pull the front wings and check travel....does your tire hit the inner fender before the shock bump stop? Then get some heim jointed tie rods that will allow you to adjust your bump steer....you won't get perfect, but you can make it better.

How do you have the rear setup? Byron's brackets are great...are you using stock bushings? sucking the rear crossmember/mustache bar up into the body helps using poly or solid bushings. You using cut springs or coilovers?....also expect some driveline vibrations with stock axles at that angle. CV axles are in your future.

Let us know what Don has to say....project looking good



My friend Sam and I have drawn all the front suspension in Solid Works and have been looking into roll centers and bump steer angle. The front suspension gains camber until the LCA angle is beyond 12 degrees. Which makes sense since the strut angle is 12 dregrees, once the strut and LCA go beyond 90 degrees they no longer add camber. Raising the LCA changes bump steer and it changes anti dive. Here is a chart of the different suspension combos on a lowered car and there bump.


The wagon with early crossmember is actually worse even than it looks. At 14 degrees of LCA angle the outer tie rod starts to bind which in messed up our measurements. It wasn't till later that we noticed it. In all my suspension exploration it wasn't till now that I've ever noticed the outer tie rod binding.

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In the last race I had 200lb springs in the front, I just received a set of 300's in the mail for the front and back. My biggest problem is because of that sway bar... Maybe 2" of travel before it hits. I've installed bump stops that lower that to about 1" of travel... The sway bar still hits the TC rods if I slam into really big bumps. So before the TC rods brake I need to find a solution. I'm going to swap out the current bump stops for some harder ones so the TC rod and sway bar stop hitting. Then in the long run I need to get the BRE style sway bar.

The rear currently is set a zero toe (It took me about 5 tries to get it that good. I wanted some toe in but gave up. I want to remove the step inside the rear fender lip so I can get rid of some camber. So I called it good at zero toe and who knows how much camber...

I have the rear crossmember washer trick and I'm running rear coilovers with 500lb springs. Way to stiff but the 200's that were in there before made it yucky to drive. Also stock bushings in the back.

Lastly yes the car vibrates really bad. I only drive a little over a mile each way to work so it doesn't really bother me. When I head to the track or to visit friends it sucks. 45 MPH is the worst speed at 70 on the freeway it's not to bad. When I have an extra 900 bucks I'll get a set :)

thanks for the input!
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?


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