New swap-4G63T

View and post your 510 project(s)
User avatar
jeffball610
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Sep 2006 14:12
Location: Las Vegas, NV

New swap-4G63T

Postby jeffball610 » 11 Jul 2007 19:47

About 2 years ago I had a great idea to put the Mitsubishi 4G63T (Eclipse turbo motor) into a Datsun 510. Well, I'm just now getting around to having parts, time, space and tools to get the work done.

I've got a guy in Toledo making bellhousings to Toyota transmissions. I'm running an R154 from a 89 Toyota Supra turbo. My engine is a stock second generation motor (8.5:1 compression) with a first generation head. (larger ports)

I just picked up a Z31 fuel pump assembly and will get my brake and suspension setup soon. Probably Ermish Racing Willwood setup and Ground control springs. Still looking for an R200 LSD with CV axles.

Other than that, the only real issue I will have is exhaust routing. Anyone have pictures of 13b swaps and how they route their exhaust? The 4G63 exits on the passenger side like the 13b does.

There is plenty of clearance and flipping the front crossmember like SR20 swaps is about all the engine bay work I'll need. Just for fun, I tried to put the 4G63 on the L16 mounts. Guess what? They fit with just a 1/2" spacer on the block and need to grind or drill a hole for the locating "nub".

Haven't run into any other issues, but I haven't gotten in too deep yet. I'll be frequenting the forums more in recent months to pick everyones' brains for the little things to make this come together. Feel free to ask questions and challenge my thought process behind this. I'm sure there's some things I haven't thought about and need to look into. Your questions will help with that. Here's a link to my photobucket account where I'm putting the majority of my photos.

http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u71/jeffball610/

510rob
Moderator
Posts: 4529
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 23:37
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact:

RE: New swap-4G63T

Postby 510rob » 11 Jul 2007 20:09

right on! - I was looking at that bellhousing project myself. It will be interesting to see progress on this car.

User avatar
heirfaus
Posts: 2173
Joined: 30 Jan 2005 23:30
Location: Portland, OR

RE: New swap-4G63T

Postby heirfaus » 11 Jul 2007 20:12

I may have to rethink my L20bET
Last edited by heirfaus on 11 Jul 2007 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
"An intercooler...has never been, nor should ever be, considered icing on the cake. A proper intercooler is more cake."
Corky Bell, Maximum Boost

"one of the little things that add up"
-defdes

510rob
Moderator
Posts: 4529
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 23:37
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact:

RE: New swap-4G63T

Postby 510rob » 11 Jul 2007 20:12

What about the Evo series motors?!? They are 4G63 variants, but with the intake and exhaust flipped side-to-side. That would put the exhaust on the correct side for the rear crossmember hole. There's not too much room on the right side of the crossmember for an exhaust hole because the diff snout seems to be slightly offset towards the right side of the car.

User avatar
Byron510
Moderator
Posts: 11621
Joined: 01 Jul 2003 23:06
Location: Maple Ridge, BC

RE: New swap-4G63T

Postby Byron510 » 11 Jul 2007 23:17

You’ll have to excuse my ignorance - I've never been into one of these Mits motors, but I've heard great things.
Can you rotate the head 180 degrees on a Mitsu motor?
I have performed the machine work necessary to do this on a Honda motor – only re-locating the Head dowel pins was necessary – don’t worry, the cams were still in their stock location, driven off the front. Honda made the head so symmetrical, that this was possible – it’s just a thought and if it can work for you it my solve your exhaust issues.
Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.

510rob
Moderator
Posts: 4529
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 23:37
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact:

RE: New swap-4G63T

Postby 510rob » 12 Jul 2007 01:31

Byron, here's a picture of the later production Mitsubishi Lancer Evo? version, with the factory "flipped head"
Attachments
Mitsu_evo_4G63T_1.JPG
Mitsu_evo_4G63T_2.JPG

User avatar
jeffball610
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Sep 2006 14:12
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Postby jeffball610 » 12 Jul 2007 14:07

I never really thought to use an EVO head. The head cannot be "flipped". At least to my knowledge. A lot of my project just came from my familiarity with the 4G63 and the cheap and readily available parts. My long block cost me about $250 with new valves and gaskets. My whole project is projected at $10k. I know a lot of people aim low and end up going high on the price, but I think mine is reasonable. My most expensive part besides the car itself ($800) was the tranny. Cost me $510 shipped. (isn't that ironic?)

The stock engine should be good for 400hp, but I'm aiming lower at around 300whp daily. My turbo ($410) flows enough air to support over 400hp and can easily support my goals. http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/pro ... 192&page=1

Another small issue is the intake manifold. The original setup faces the rear of the motor. They do make aftermarket manifolds that face the front, but cost $400+ new. I'm getting a custom one made by a trustworthy source for cost of parts. (about $250) The turbo setup on these motors is also a small issue. The turbo will "hang" out from the motor instead of hugging it like in stock from. Again because I'm reversing the intake setup. Also, the thermostat housing is on the rear of the motor and will require some small custom work to route to the front.

Also, the EVO 8-9 motors will not bolt up to the current bellhousings we are having cast. Both 1G and 2G DSM (Eclipse, Talon, Laser) motors will bolt to a Toyota W55, W58 or R154. (about $350)Stock size FWD 4G63 flywheel and a Toyota 9" disk with 4G63 pressure plate is all that is needed.

Speaking of pressure plates, what clutch master cylinder should I use? Is the stock 510 unit up to it, or should I run a 240Z etc.? Whatever the SR20DET guys are running should work. Whatever that may be.

Anyway, I'll update as I can. I'm working on wiring and rebuilding the front steering/suspension parts until I can get my crossmember welded. Keep the questions coming.

User avatar
mesojdm
Posts: 523
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 09:52
Location: NOR*CAL
Contact:

Postby mesojdm » 12 Jul 2007 15:24

thats such a sick swap!!! I give mad props!! 4g63 engines recact sooooo well to mods and have ALOT of potential. 4G63 510 FTMFW!!!!!!!!

kiznook
Posts: 240
Joined: 28 Sep 2006 23:23
Location: Vancouver WA
Contact:

Postby kiznook » 12 Jul 2007 21:20

I saw one guy a while back doing the same. I'm pretty sure he's still "working" on it. Gonna take years though

User avatar
icehouse
Posts: 3011
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 17:06
Location: Everett Wa

Postby icehouse » 12 Jul 2007 21:24

jeffball610 wrote: Speaking of pressure plates, what clutch master cylinder should I use? Is the stock 510 unit up to it, or should I run a 240Z etc.? Whatever the SR20DET guys are running should work. Whatever that may be.



I used the stock master, I'm mostly muscle though. Ask the guys :D


So from a non bias side, what is the benefit of this engine? I have a few mitsu friends, they say its a great engine. Well except the crank walk problem... Which I don't know much about. Also whats up with the counter weights... Nissan never does anything silly like that :wink:

How did you get that turbo for 400$? the page says 1100...

What are the chances I could get you to send me a dizzy pick-up wheel from the first gen and second gen dizzys? Hey we are buddies now, you cant say no :D
I liked Hainz better...... Can we trade back?

User avatar
jeffball610
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Sep 2006 14:12
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Postby jeffball610 » 13 Jul 2007 16:31

I have no idea what a dizzy wheel is. :?

The 4G63 has very good performance potential even on the stock bottom end. Some people push these to 400hp on a daily basis. That requires a very good tune though. Parts are very plentiful (that's how I get em so cheap) and regular bolt-ons add big power.

The "balance shafts" are a silly thing. Most people just pull them out for "free" horse power. They do help some with the vibration of the motor which is why Mitsu put them in. Most stock motors are balanced well enough to do without them and not have any real issues other than a more noticed vibration. (makes it feel more like a racecar I guess)

Crankwalk is still a mystery to most everyone. There seems to be no definite reason for it, but stems around the thrust bearing failing and causing excessive crank play. This is really only noted on 2nd gen motors, but can happen to any engine. The real mystery is why it can happen to a stock motor, a well built motor, or just a stock bottom end with some bolt-ons.

The main reason people dislike these motors or have issues with them is people tend to break timing belts. Mostly it's on neglected engines, but also happens on motors that just over power the belt. There are kevlar belts on the market that solve this. They also tend to blow stock head gaskets when you push too much boost through them. Mitsu makes a nice multi-layer metal head gasket that can take just about anything you can throw at it. Not to mention the aftermarket has tons of other options.

And I picked up the turbo used from a club member that was parting out his car. Also got the short block from him. :wink:

510rob
Moderator
Posts: 4529
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 23:37
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact:

Postby 510rob » 13 Jul 2007 18:22

The crank-walk issue stems from Mitsubishi's inherent cheap-ass-ness, and cost-cutting on the Gen2 block piston oilers...

The Gen 1 engines don't have the crank-walk issue. The Gen 2 engines do. I think the Gen 1 is also called a "6 bolt" and the Gen 2 is called a "7 bolt" in reference to the number of flywheel bolts or something like that. Anyway...

The Gen 1 blocks use piston oilers nozzles that bolt into the bottom of the block. These nozzles are screwed into the block, and draw oil from the mail oil gallery. Each nozzle assembly has a built-in ball and spring minimum pressure break valve that requires oil pressure to be over a certain amount before the oil squirter will start to blast the bottom of the piston with a nice shower of scalding hot oil. Mind you, the piston is about a zillion degrees hotter, so the oil is still cooler so it's still cools off the piston... Good stuff!

On the Gen 2 blocks, Mitsubishi, or DSM (blame it on Chrysler?) did away with the externally mounted oil nozzle assemblies, preferring to incorporate some cheap-ass mechanism into the main bearing seat. The oil nozzle is a small jet that has the same ball & spring kit, but in the Gen 2 motors, it's mini, and sits in the main seat for four of the mains... ...and now it's drawing oil out of the mains = UH OH!!! The miniaturized nozzles have problems with contamination or whatever, so the balls tend to stick open, thereby starving the mains for oil... and somehow this has been confused as a "crank walk" issue by most people...

The solution that's worked for a few shops who work on the 4G63 motors is to remove the oil squirters from the Gen 2 blocks, and plug the hole - no oil squirter to starve the bearings is better than a squirter than might kill a motor!!!

Anyway, that's what my own research dug up. Regardless of that, I've also been told that the 4G63 heads are the best flowing of any of the import heads. I like the fact that they come stock with roller cams! I also get a kick out of the fact that Hyundai licensed the design and put it into a bunch of their own cars! Who knew the lowly Hyundai Scoupe (scoop? sp?) had the potential to make 800+HP?!?

510rob
Moderator
Posts: 4529
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 23:37
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact:

Postby 510rob » 13 Jul 2007 18:23

Jeff, are you wanting the CAS wheel so you can MS your SR20?

User avatar
jeffball610
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Sep 2006 14:12
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Postby jeffball610 » 15 Jul 2007 15:48

Again, no idea what you mean by "MS your SR20". :?

The information about the oil squirters is the most common believed suspect to crank walk. No one really knows for sure.

Yes Hyundai did use the Mitsu motors in a lot of applications. Here's a link to most of the applications.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/mits ... ations.htm

For more information on this swap and others like it go to:

http://www.projectzerog.com/

And visit the forums for people like me doing this swap.

datzenmike
Supporter
Posts: 5206
Joined: 24 May 2006 12:40
Location: Van. Isle.

Postby datzenmike » 15 Jul 2007 20:41

jeffball610 wrote:Again, no idea what you mean by "MS your SR20". :?


Well if CAS is crank angle sensor then MS has to be Mega Squirt. (knowing Jeff)
"Nissan 'shit the bed' when they made these, plain and simple." McShagger510 on flattop SUs


Return to “Project Builds”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest