Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Valve Springs with WebCam 91
I want to use a WebCam 91 new grind cam on my L20B U67 cylinder head.
Since the cam is a new grind not a re-grind, the base circles are stock and as such I believe the lash pads may be stock as well or maybe one size thicker. That will be determined when I do the wipe pattern test on new rocker arms.
However, regarding valve springs to use with a WebCam 91 cam. Lift - .450/.450; duration - 260°/260°; duration @ .050 - 238°/238°. Claiming strong mid and upper end performance for street / strip.
Will stock springs work or should I get some performance springs? If performance springs are recommended, who and what?
Will I have to machine the valve spring seat on the head? I would rather not do any machining.
I should say that I do not plan to run the engine on the strip, but only street and maybe autocross and limit max rpm to 6000.
Please advise.
Since the cam is a new grind not a re-grind, the base circles are stock and as such I believe the lash pads may be stock as well or maybe one size thicker. That will be determined when I do the wipe pattern test on new rocker arms.
However, regarding valve springs to use with a WebCam 91 cam. Lift - .450/.450; duration - 260°/260°; duration @ .050 - 238°/238°. Claiming strong mid and upper end performance for street / strip.
Will stock springs work or should I get some performance springs? If performance springs are recommended, who and what?
Will I have to machine the valve spring seat on the head? I would rather not do any machining.
I should say that I do not plan to run the engine on the strip, but only street and maybe autocross and limit max rpm to 6000.
Please advise.
Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
I had a 268°/480" cam way back, and the grinder said I could use stock springs. I did.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
I would highly recommend at least replacing the springs with new factory ones. You don't want too put old tired springs back in.
The WebCam-91 grind is fairly mild, so stock new springs should work fine.
My engine builder used 13203-F2000 ( superseded from 13203-E4100 ) outer springs with stock 13024-23000 inners. Combo works good with up to a 280 degree cam. Lift is around .475" . However, that's right on the limit of what NEW stock springs will handle. Stock springs will coil bind over .480" ( and that's pushing it ), but duration is also critical. Higher duration cams accelerate the valve opening faster and you can get valve float which is very harmful to the valve train.
My L28 pulls hard to 7,200 RPM ( Shneider 280 cam ), but that's higher than I need to take it. My new Haltech ECU will have a 6,500 RPM shift point and a 6,800 RPM limiter
There's another discussion about Rev limits and valve springs here:
http://www.classiczcars.com/topic/50383 ... rpm-range/
Oil with high performance cams is CRITICAL. Do NOT use any energy star rated oils. ZDDP reduction is reduced and that is the high pressure ingredient that protects the cam to tappet/follower interface. Use a HDEO ( (Diesel oil ) such as Rotella T6 5w-40 ( excellent Full Synthetic oil )or Rotella 15w-40 semi synthetic, or a specialty full synthetic High Zinc content oil made for High Performance or " Hot Rod " engines. Redline, Amsoil, Joe Gibbs, Motul etc all have excellent products formulated specifically for HP cars.
Generally the thicker weight oils 10w-40,15w-40,15w-50, 20w-50 are still higher ZDDP content. ( IE: normal ZDDP levels for 70's and 80's cars ) . 4x4 truck oils are also usually higher ZDDP content as they are exempt from the stricter EPA standards of the new SM/SM Energy Star oils that have reduced ZDDP levels.
New cam break-in procedure is also critical. Break the engine and Cam in with a high ZDDP level Dino oil. Pennzoil 20-50 and Delo or Delvac diesel oils are good. Use lots of the specialty Cam break-in lube and don't idle the car for the first 20 minutes. Make sure that when you first fire it up, you can immediately run the car to a minimum of 2,000 RPM for at least 20 minutes with out having to shut it down with it to fix any leaks etc or bad running. Preparation is the key.
Some very good info here on oils:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... p?ubb=cfrm
The WebCam-91 grind is fairly mild, so stock new springs should work fine.
My engine builder used 13203-F2000 ( superseded from 13203-E4100 ) outer springs with stock 13024-23000 inners. Combo works good with up to a 280 degree cam. Lift is around .475" . However, that's right on the limit of what NEW stock springs will handle. Stock springs will coil bind over .480" ( and that's pushing it ), but duration is also critical. Higher duration cams accelerate the valve opening faster and you can get valve float which is very harmful to the valve train.
My L28 pulls hard to 7,200 RPM ( Shneider 280 cam ), but that's higher than I need to take it. My new Haltech ECU will have a 6,500 RPM shift point and a 6,800 RPM limiter
There's another discussion about Rev limits and valve springs here:
http://www.classiczcars.com/topic/50383 ... rpm-range/
Oil with high performance cams is CRITICAL. Do NOT use any energy star rated oils. ZDDP reduction is reduced and that is the high pressure ingredient that protects the cam to tappet/follower interface. Use a HDEO ( (Diesel oil ) such as Rotella T6 5w-40 ( excellent Full Synthetic oil )or Rotella 15w-40 semi synthetic, or a specialty full synthetic High Zinc content oil made for High Performance or " Hot Rod " engines. Redline, Amsoil, Joe Gibbs, Motul etc all have excellent products formulated specifically for HP cars.
Generally the thicker weight oils 10w-40,15w-40,15w-50, 20w-50 are still higher ZDDP content. ( IE: normal ZDDP levels for 70's and 80's cars ) . 4x4 truck oils are also usually higher ZDDP content as they are exempt from the stricter EPA standards of the new SM/SM Energy Star oils that have reduced ZDDP levels.
New cam break-in procedure is also critical. Break the engine and Cam in with a high ZDDP level Dino oil. Pennzoil 20-50 and Delo or Delvac diesel oils are good. Use lots of the specialty Cam break-in lube and don't idle the car for the first 20 minutes. Make sure that when you first fire it up, you can immediately run the car to a minimum of 2,000 RPM for at least 20 minutes with out having to shut it down with it to fix any leaks etc or bad running. Preparation is the key.
Some very good info here on oils:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... p?ubb=cfrm
- funwithmonkeys
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Springs are cheap, slamming a piston into a valve because a spring gave up is expensive. At very least buy new springs.
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?
Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Thanks for everyone's inputs.
The head is fresh from the machine shop with new stock springs, new SI stainless valves (43mm intake, 35mm exhaust), new bronze guides, new valve seats and seals, new rockers and ported intake to match the gasket and Cannon intake manifold. I have some lash pads on order (15s, 16s and 17s). I also have some alloy spring retainers for pads above 16.
Even though only .020 material was removed during decking of the head (.005 from the bottom and .015 from the top), I think I will add shims under the cam towers. Get the cam back up closer to where it should be. So I got some .015 shims on order. If I need more, I can add .005 shim stock.
The WebCam does come with break-in lube so I will use lots of it and will use Castrol 20w-50 oil.
I hope the dual 40DCOE Webers will be tuned close enough to get the engine running at 2k from start-up. They should since they have been totally rebuilt and all things are equal. Assuming the compression is within 10% of each other.
The ignition is a matchbox dizzy with an Accel Super Coil. No ballast.
Also, any suggestions on spark plugs? Specifically heat range.
The head is fresh from the machine shop with new stock springs, new SI stainless valves (43mm intake, 35mm exhaust), new bronze guides, new valve seats and seals, new rockers and ported intake to match the gasket and Cannon intake manifold. I have some lash pads on order (15s, 16s and 17s). I also have some alloy spring retainers for pads above 16.
Even though only .020 material was removed during decking of the head (.005 from the bottom and .015 from the top), I think I will add shims under the cam towers. Get the cam back up closer to where it should be. So I got some .015 shims on order. If I need more, I can add .005 shim stock.
The WebCam does come with break-in lube so I will use lots of it and will use Castrol 20w-50 oil.
I hope the dual 40DCOE Webers will be tuned close enough to get the engine running at 2k from start-up. They should since they have been totally rebuilt and all things are equal. Assuming the compression is within 10% of each other.
The ignition is a matchbox dizzy with an Accel Super Coil. No ballast.
Also, any suggestions on spark plugs? Specifically heat range.
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Personally, I would stay far, far away from Castrol oils. One of the absolute worst oils out there. Very poor shear protection. The Castrol GTX of today is NOT what it used to be in the 70's and 80's.
Every single engine that I've tried Castrol oil in during the last 20 years, I've drained it almost immediately. Mechanical noise is noticeably worse and idle speed drops. That can only be attributed to more friction and metal to metal contact.
Pennsylvania bent crude oil ( eastern stocks ) is the best. According to geologists, it has something to do with the aging of the Dinosaur deposits. Like a fine Scotch. Older is better. I kid you not!! Pennzoil, Brad Penn and a few others are Pennsylvania bent crude stocks. Castrol, Quaker sate, Havoline and others are Western stocks.
Plugs. NGK Copper. BPR6ES should be fine. BPR7ES if you run track days.
Every single engine that I've tried Castrol oil in during the last 20 years, I've drained it almost immediately. Mechanical noise is noticeably worse and idle speed drops. That can only be attributed to more friction and metal to metal contact.
Pennsylvania bent crude oil ( eastern stocks ) is the best. According to geologists, it has something to do with the aging of the Dinosaur deposits. Like a fine Scotch. Older is better. I kid you not!! Pennzoil, Brad Penn and a few others are Pennsylvania bent crude stocks. Castrol, Quaker sate, Havoline and others are Western stocks.
Plugs. NGK Copper. BPR6ES should be fine. BPR7ES if you run track days.
Last edited by Chickenman on 18 Oct 2015 21:23, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Match box Dist system REQUIRES that you use the 111 series NGK plugs gaped to at least 0.040"
NGK BPR6ES-11 or NGK BPR6ES-11
NGK BPR6ES-11 or NGK BPR6ES-11
Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Match box Dist system REQUIRES that you use the 11 series NGK plugs gaped to at least 0.040"
NGK BPR6ES-11 or NGK BPR6ES-11
NGK BPR6ES-11 or NGK BPR6ES-11
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Forgot to put the " R" in plug range for " Resistor". You should always use resister plugs... and a good spiral core wire like NGK or MSD.
But the comment...the Matchbox Dizzy REQUIRES NGK 11 series gapped to at least .040"? We better let Bertvorgon know that as he's been running his infamous Turboed Red Beast at .028" for the last 20 years.
I missed that the OP was running a Matchbox dizzy, but gaps from .032" to .042" will still work fine with the module dizzy. The larger gap will give a bigger spark kernel, but the module itself is not affected if you run a smaller gap.
But the comment...the Matchbox Dizzy REQUIRES NGK 11 series gapped to at least .040"? We better let Bertvorgon know that as he's been running his infamous Turboed Red Beast at .028" for the last 20 years.
I missed that the OP was running a Matchbox dizzy, but gaps from .032" to .042" will still work fine with the module dizzy. The larger gap will give a bigger spark kernel, but the module itself is not affected if you run a smaller gap.
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Really? I guess I'd better let my son know that the Castrol GTX oil he's been running in his Jeep pretty much forever is shit,,according to you. This is one of those statement like "Fram filters are the worst" I have been using frams forever in all my vehicles and my son uses them and Castrol oils in his 100k plus miles great running none oil using none idle speed dropping Jeep.Chickenman wrote:Personally, I would stay far, far away from Castrol oils. One of the absolute worst oils out there. Very poor shear protection. The Castrol GTX of today is NOT what it used to be in the 70's and 80's.
Every single engine that I've tried Castrol oil in during the last 20 years, I've drained it almost immediately. Mechanical noise is noticeably worse and idle speed drops. That can only be attributed to more friction and metal to metal contact.
Pennsylvania bent crude oil ( eastern stocks ) is the best. According to geologists, it has something to do with the aging of the Dinosaur deposits. Like a fine Scotch. Older is better. I kid you not!! Pennzoil, Brad Penn and a few others are Pennsylvania bent crude stocks. Castrol, Quaker sate, Havoline and others are Western stocks.
Plugs. NGK Copper. BPR6ES should be fine. BPR7ES if you run track days.
"Lastnight the wife said oh boy when your dead you can't take nothing with you but your soul oh "Think"
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- John Lennon
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
That's great. If you haven't had any issues fine, Keep on trucking. That's why I said " Personally ".
However, I don't make statements without some facts. The facts are that that I've compared many, many different oils in various cars in my decades of driving. Castrol oils since the 2000's have gone downhill. I've tried them in everything from my 425HP Camaro ( Catsrol GTX Dino and Castrol synthetics ) to my Audi A4 boosting 20 lbs ( Castrol Syntec/Edge 5w-40 ) . In every case there has been a noticeable increase in Mechanical noise. I send my oils to Blackstone labs for analysis, but in the cases of the Castrol, I wouldn't leave it in there long enough to cause damage. Experiences from members on BobIsTheOil Guy and various Audi forums have many other members having issues with Castrol oils. Not so much in stock vehicles, but in vehicles with modified engines.
Also note that we are talking about high performance engines in this thread with increased valve spring pressures from Higher lift cams, longer duarations and stiffer springs. That puts a lot more load on the Cam to Lifter interface. A critical area where oils can fail. It may well be fine in your sons Jeep.. but field testing in the Racing world gives different results.
As for not noticing a drop in idle speeds on your sons Jeep. What year is your sons Jeep? Is it fuel injected? FI cars automatically adjust the idle speed to keep it steady, so you normally wouldn't notice a decrease in speed. On my Carburated Camaro there was an immediate drop of 100 rpm when I replaced the Amsoil synthetic 10w-30 with Castrol synthetic 10w-30. And an IMMEDIATE increase in lifter noise.
On the 1998 Audi ( 1.8l Turbo FI ) it was a bit harder to notice. The engine just seemed to rougher and was noticably noisier than before. Fortunately I have some pretty sophisticated diagnostics equipment and have run a lot of Logs on my Audi. The idle on the AEB engine has a stepper motor in the Throttle Body to control idle speed instead of an IAC . By comparing logs I could see that the throttle opening to maintain the normal idle speed of 880 rpm had increased a couple of degrees. Dumped the Castrol oil and put Amsoil back in and did a direct back to back logging of the engine. Not only did the mechanical noise in the engine immediately go away, but the throttle opening had also reduced back to normal levels. That was enough empiric evidence for me.
As for Fram filters. " Personally " I won't use them and with good reason. Yes they filter oil. So does toilet paper. But they are very cheaply made and there are better products on the market for very little money. There are plenty of articles available where independent Labs have dissected various Brands of filters and have compared not only the components, but also the ability to filter fine particles while maintaining proper flow rates. In every test, " regular " Fram filters are among the worst. The shoddy materials is just shocking. Their Racing filters are a different matter. I read an article that Fram doesn't even make there own racing filters anymore, but I'm not sure of the accuracy. Wouldn't surprise me though in this Global market. Fram isn't even the same company anymore. It was sold off to a big Multi national conglomerate back in the 90's. That's when their filter quality took a nose dive.
I normally use Factory filters be it Nissan, GM, or Honda etc. Factory filters cost a bit more, but they are usually proven to be very very good.
Bottom line. I'm wasn't taking a chance on damaging a $12,000 Race engine in my Camaro because I want to save a couple of buck on a some oil or an oil filter. Your opinion may vary and you are entitled to it... but don't talk down to me and call my advice " ( Edit: ) generalist nonsense" . I do my research and I base it on facts and research.
However, I don't make statements without some facts. The facts are that that I've compared many, many different oils in various cars in my decades of driving. Castrol oils since the 2000's have gone downhill. I've tried them in everything from my 425HP Camaro ( Catsrol GTX Dino and Castrol synthetics ) to my Audi A4 boosting 20 lbs ( Castrol Syntec/Edge 5w-40 ) . In every case there has been a noticeable increase in Mechanical noise. I send my oils to Blackstone labs for analysis, but in the cases of the Castrol, I wouldn't leave it in there long enough to cause damage. Experiences from members on BobIsTheOil Guy and various Audi forums have many other members having issues with Castrol oils. Not so much in stock vehicles, but in vehicles with modified engines.
Also note that we are talking about high performance engines in this thread with increased valve spring pressures from Higher lift cams, longer duarations and stiffer springs. That puts a lot more load on the Cam to Lifter interface. A critical area where oils can fail. It may well be fine in your sons Jeep.. but field testing in the Racing world gives different results.
As for not noticing a drop in idle speeds on your sons Jeep. What year is your sons Jeep? Is it fuel injected? FI cars automatically adjust the idle speed to keep it steady, so you normally wouldn't notice a decrease in speed. On my Carburated Camaro there was an immediate drop of 100 rpm when I replaced the Amsoil synthetic 10w-30 with Castrol synthetic 10w-30. And an IMMEDIATE increase in lifter noise.
On the 1998 Audi ( 1.8l Turbo FI ) it was a bit harder to notice. The engine just seemed to rougher and was noticably noisier than before. Fortunately I have some pretty sophisticated diagnostics equipment and have run a lot of Logs on my Audi. The idle on the AEB engine has a stepper motor in the Throttle Body to control idle speed instead of an IAC . By comparing logs I could see that the throttle opening to maintain the normal idle speed of 880 rpm had increased a couple of degrees. Dumped the Castrol oil and put Amsoil back in and did a direct back to back logging of the engine. Not only did the mechanical noise in the engine immediately go away, but the throttle opening had also reduced back to normal levels. That was enough empiric evidence for me.
As for Fram filters. " Personally " I won't use them and with good reason. Yes they filter oil. So does toilet paper. But they are very cheaply made and there are better products on the market for very little money. There are plenty of articles available where independent Labs have dissected various Brands of filters and have compared not only the components, but also the ability to filter fine particles while maintaining proper flow rates. In every test, " regular " Fram filters are among the worst. The shoddy materials is just shocking. Their Racing filters are a different matter. I read an article that Fram doesn't even make there own racing filters anymore, but I'm not sure of the accuracy. Wouldn't surprise me though in this Global market. Fram isn't even the same company anymore. It was sold off to a big Multi national conglomerate back in the 90's. That's when their filter quality took a nose dive.
I normally use Factory filters be it Nissan, GM, or Honda etc. Factory filters cost a bit more, but they are usually proven to be very very good.
Bottom line. I'm wasn't taking a chance on damaging a $12,000 Race engine in my Camaro because I want to save a couple of buck on a some oil or an oil filter. Your opinion may vary and you are entitled to it... but don't talk down to me and call my advice " ( Edit: ) generalist nonsense" . I do my research and I base it on facts and research.
Last edited by Chickenman on 19 Oct 2015 11:23, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Please reign in the borderline-swearing-attacks and unnecessary hostility guys, it's only motor oil and there is no reason to get pissy about things.
- bertvorgon
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
Personally, I run extra virgin olive oil, as the bits left in my containers I can put on my salad, and I long for the days of castor oil...mmmmm,,, that lovely smell during my early years at the race track, watching British cars burn gallons of it during a single session......
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan
Keith Law
1973 2 Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer
Keith Law
1973 2 Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer
Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
bean oil is always a treat to smell around the pits at vintage racing.
- funwithmonkeys
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Re: Valve Springs with WebCam 91
I've just changed to what has been described as "the miricle oil". Coconut oil, really fantastic smell, like macaroons, great on your skin if you get some dry cracked patches after working on the car and easy to measure out.....just cur off a block the size of your oil pan, remove oil pan, place block of solid oil in pan and replace pan. That is unless it is above 23C out then it is a liquid and you can just pour it in. You will also need an oil warmer to warm up the oil before you start your car so the oil will actually flow.
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?