Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Engine, Transmission and related drivetrain.
2DoorJim
Supporter
Posts: 238
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 21:43
Location: Calgary

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby 2DoorJim » 30 May 2016 17:22

Jim, I noticed this also so I spoke to them and brought up subaru CLSD R180, his response concerned axle length measurement more than anything.

Here is the picture from their site, which is correct design for the Subaru R180 unit, which utilizes a spring circlip groove for retention versus the Datsun R180 which uses a through bolt.



108-su-i-27_1.jpg
108-su-i-27_1.jpg (45.9 KiB) Viewed 635 times

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 9570
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby bertvorgon » 30 May 2016 17:23

Yah, there have been issues with the spline play, which some say is not an issue?! That being said, I know I would like a better close clearance, just because I do not think any slop is a good idea. Maybe for the street, but, if you are on and off the throttle say at a slalom, I just cannot think that excessive play is a good idea. I know Andy was not too impressed with the ones that went on Norms car.

Jim, what do you find with the Porsche ones?
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 9570
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby bertvorgon » 30 May 2016 17:28

Maybe Dave will chime in, at least on the R180 standpoint. While my car is actually very smooth, all things considered, the half shafts in my car are a zillion years old with a ton of race miles on them. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but, it might be nice to upgrade.
I'm going to go and play Call of Duty for a few minutes...
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

2DoorJim
Supporter
Posts: 238
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 21:43
Location: Calgary

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby 2DoorJim » 30 May 2016 17:41

Keith I've never noticed slop on the factory CVs and shafts but I'll look close tomorrow and report back.

I was hoping to send this business to Dave but it doesn't appear he offers the combination stub to CV conversion, only the Sub stub to 4 bolt.

I bet it would't be hard for him to have his shop make the flanges to accommodate CVs. Buy the out end adaptor pucks (I want alloy steel for these, not alum), some 930 CVs, then order up a couple axles.

2DoorJim
Supporter
Posts: 238
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 21:43
Location: Calgary

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby 2DoorJim » 30 May 2016 18:01


User avatar
toylet
Supporter
Posts: 436
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 20:54
Location: Mesa AZ

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby toylet » 30 May 2016 21:03

bertvorgon wrote:Thanks for that Toylet. Is the "play" acceptable?

My kit does have play in it, but I have hit 105 mph and had no vibrations. So I assume it is okay. Plus the seals are not leaking oil so it might be normal operation.

User avatar
Byron510
Moderator
Posts: 11443
Joined: 01 Jul 2003 23:06
Location: Maple Ridge, BC

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby Byron510 » 31 May 2016 00:04



Wow, what a thread!

Felt a bit sorry for Troy in that position - good advise to stay out of a forum and pick up the phone! Stuff goes too sideways!!!

But a little hear say information at least.

I'm moderately happy with my old WCR kit, and I'm in the under 200HP category. There is a little play as noted in my installation thread. From what I could tell,the play present was fully in the joints and not on the spline. But it makes me want to look again now! Nothing like second guessing yourself.
I know why guys like Keith are looking for something bigger. You don't want to buy a weak link to put in the chain. That said I have broken an R160, but have not even strained the R180 apparently

All that I can add is that the CV conversion went a long way to making my cars driveline a whole lot smoother with no other mods done at the same time.

Keep us posted guys. I have another project with an R200 l, two more cylinders and a turbo which needs an LSD. So I'm all ears!

Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 9570
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby bertvorgon » 31 May 2016 07:00

Maybe I am worrying needlessly, but, I know Byron you had an issue did you not, of the first set you got?

And then of course when Andy says he is not impressed the the play, that sends up red flags for me over time. Maybe Norm will pipe up as to who the manufacture was for his set of axles.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
Byron510
Moderator
Posts: 11443
Joined: 01 Jul 2003 23:06
Location: Maple Ridge, BC

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby Byron510 » 31 May 2016 07:32

bertvorgon wrote:Maybe I am worrying needlessly, but, I know Byron you had an issue did you not, of the first set you got?

And then of course when Andy says he is not impressed the the play, that sends up red flags for me over time. Maybe Norm will pipe up as to who the manufacture was for his set of axles.


Yes, I did have an issue up front upon installation- but this was not a spline or machining issue as noted previously. My set of WCR axles were delivered with extra clearance, high angularity Empi CV joints. Now maybe these are better for some applications, but the play in that CV joint itself due to the undersized balls was excessive to me. Like you, I feel that a tight joint is the best joint. Todd replaced these with a standard CV at no cost and the "play" issue was cured. Then I was happy with the set up for sure.

So my issue is not to be confused with the spline clearance machining issue that is causing the play noted in other installations.

Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 9570
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby bertvorgon » 31 May 2016 13:21

I am not on Facebook so I cannot read that thread.

Thanks Byron, now I remember.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

2DoorJim
Supporter
Posts: 238
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 21:43
Location: Calgary

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby 2DoorJim » 31 May 2016 19:06

Keith, here is some insight to factory tolerances regarding splines.

I set up a couple axles in a fashion that I could put a dial indicator on the shaft to observe slop in the splines.

The late 930 unit appears to be the one used by the DSS. I figured these guys would use the 100mm unit on the far right since our cars are fairly light, but it seems like they used the heavier 108mm unit to withstand more abuse.

Not sure why my pictures don't automatically display now.

https://goo.gl/photos/JmZVwvibL5V44zED6

I rigged up both CVs in a fashion that I could get a dial indicator on them. The late unit measured 0.006" with the indicator stylus on one of the bolt heads. I couldn't observe where the .006 came from but I suspect it was the splines since this specific joint has 97K Kms (60K miles) and is still a little tight when flexing it.
https://goo.gl/photos/Qh929i8UN97yFNvQA

Here is the old version 108mm CV from an old 930, the joint is very loose and I suspect it's been around the block. I measured 0.021" and since I could pull the boot back I observed that the majority of the slop was in the joint, very very little in the splines.
https://goo.gl/photos/mKxE9BgsWQSWtBf6A

Note that these are Lobro brand which is the supplier to porsche, and I've always found these to be tight when new. Sounds like the empi units are the loose ones.

I ran by a scale to get a weight comparison for you. I focussed on the outboard end to get unsprung weight.

Not sure what the correct way to do this is but I simply set one end on the scale and supported the other end but levelled the body.

Stock half shaft weighed 6 Lbs 1 oz.
https://goo.gl/photos/WQqoqv6gJUDCyEMWA

https://goo.gl/photos/YyQnbGSEvHgciMyLA


The late 930 joint weighed 6 Lbs 6 oz. (Note that the Porsche shaft is somewhat long compared to the 510 application, so there is some extra shaft adding to the weight. Of course there is also the weight of the adaptor puck. I forgot to grab a chunk of alum and steel of approx sizes but I'm going to estimate less than half a pound for the alum unit and probably a little over one pound for the steel version which the DSS supplies. After reading some of Troy's comments I agree that the alum unit is good enough, I just found it odd that no OEM used alum in this area of driveline.)
https://goo.gl/photos/QNK5toKQFTEkaMwZ9

https://goo.gl/photos/QNK5toKQFTEkaMwZ9

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 9570
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby bertvorgon » 01 Jun 2016 08:18

Morning Gang,

So is the bottom line that the Drive Shop would be the ones to get, or the WCR/Futofab ones?

And then...if only our dollar would come back...yikes...
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

heywier427
Posts: 26
Joined: 03 Apr 2013 13:26
Location: CT

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby heywier427 » 02 Jun 2016 18:38

Ive done it 2 ways.

Bought the cheapest Subaru axles from rock auto, 42.00 each plus some shipping. Bought empi vw 930 cv adapters, 83.00 for 2.

took off the diff cv stub ends of the axles, and gave those and the adapters to a machine shop, and told them to make them one. $100.00

Then measured up 28 spline inner axles and cut them down to size.


Or, Only buy the Subaru axles, knock off the ends like above, and get a custom inner axle shaft made. 28 spline on the wheel side (930 cv) and 22 spline on the Subaru side.

Depending on who you know for axle making, the cost could be from 200-400.00 for the set.

Easy.

2DoorJim
Supporter
Posts: 238
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 21:43
Location: Calgary

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby 2DoorJim » 08 Jul 2016 21:19

.




Hmmm, what's that box in the garden?

IMG_5304.jpg
IMG_5304.jpg (221.43 KiB) Viewed 396 times




It's a UPS delivery

IMG_5305.jpg
IMG_5305.jpg (165.56 KiB) Viewed 396 times



IMG_5306.jpg
IMG_5306.jpg (237.51 KiB) Viewed 396 times


More to follow tonight.

User avatar
Byron510
Moderator
Posts: 11443
Joined: 01 Jul 2003 23:06
Location: Maple Ridge, BC

Re: Buying Subaru R180 diff, should I buy the axles

Postby Byron510 » 08 Jul 2016 23:21

heywier427 wrote:Ive done it 2 ways.

Bought the cheapest Subaru axles from rock auto, 42.00 each plus some shipping. Bought empi vw 930 cv adapters, 83.00 for 2.

took off the diff cv stub ends of the axles, and gave those and the adapters to a machine shop, and told them to make them one. $100.00

Then measured up 28 spline inner axles and cut them down to size.


Or, Only buy the Subaru axles, knock off the ends like above, and get a custom inner axle shaft made. 28 spline on the wheel side (930 cv) and 22 spline on the Subaru side.

Depending on who you know for axle making, the cost could be from 200-400.00 for the set.

Easy.


Do you have any before/after photos of the work you had done?

Jim - look forward to your updates.

Thanks, Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.


Return to “Powertrain”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests