MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Engine, Transmission and related drivetrain.
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sneax
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MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby sneax » 30 Oct 2016 15:20

hello everyone

To re-introduce me here: I just finished my first and only rally up to now : The Carrera Panamericana!!!
Ya - started right away with the beat of the best! haha

Basicaly a friend offered to go with him and he then left me even the car later cuz he had no time for the race!
So I raced it for more than 3000 miles through Mexico!
Unfurtualy came off the road and had quite some damage... but made it to finished the race! And as an result of that all - I bought the car afterwards from my friend!

The car is a 1960 MGA with an untuned original Datsun 1800 engine and a 5 speed gearbox! I can post more infos and Pics if you guys like me to!
I have an "raceengine" coming with it but I did not seen it up to now because it failed last year and is in storage since! Dont know about the damage or the components yet... but let you guys know in details asap.

Suspension, balance cornering is good ... but to be able to beat my competetors (only Porsche 356 in my class) I need MORE POWER!!! maybe as well improve the brakes, gearbox, differential and much more...!

Since the rally was one of my best (car-)experiances ever , I am willing to spent now quite some money to get my car competitive!

I have experiance working on cars since I had vintage cars all my life - for the last 11 years my "baby" a 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner !

I have zero exoeriance with Datsun L engines and the datsun 5 speed gearbox... and thats why I am here!
I have one year to rebuild the car with a new engine and test it here in Mexico extensively!
Then I want to pass some Porsches! haha

So Please help me with all Information about my L engine and how to make it maximum powerfull. Max. 2liters are alowed and no turbos...
If there are crate engines I could just purchase .. I might also consider that!
I read about an Datsun 510 Pan Am 1971 with 150hp and close ratio 5 speed?

thanks all in advanced!

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okayfine
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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby okayfine » 30 Oct 2016 17:49

Hello again Guido, the pictures are excellent. If you have any more, please post up. I don't know that I've seen an MGA hardtop before. Very interesting.

On the engine, it looks like you have an A-series engine, not an L-series engine. Definitely still Datsun, but not quite as much knowledge here about it. Wondering now if it's actually 1800cc as A-series are generally 1200 or 1400cc from the factory.

The basic ideas and concepts are still outlined in the L-series-centric "How to Modify"

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByCvx ... 3kySkdIa2s

Some 1200/A-series specific info:
http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki ... ts_Catalog
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datzenmike
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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby datzenmike » 30 Oct 2016 20:50

A series top out at the A15


I think it a J series engine. Vertical oil filter just over the valve cover.... the A series is pointing downward below the alternator. The A series upper thermostat housing is mounted horizontal not vertical like this one and the A series has individual intake runners or 4 of them. The J series has two runners each sharing two cylinders. The J series has only three exhaust ports. Cylinder 2 and 3 share a single port. Engine size is stamped on the right side behind the distributor.

They did have a J18 that was used in Mexico. The Mexican 510 had (I think) a J series engine, but not the J18

The J and A series are very similar looking down to the blue valve cover. Lots of MG parts will fit the A series.


I know of no 5 speed for them, and really, in a rally you don't need one. Five speeds are for lowering cruise RPMs on the highway to save gas. Shorter differential gears (like over 4.0) will give you more acceleration and in some cases more top end speed.
"Nissan 'shit the bed' when they made these, plain and simple." McShagger510 on flattop SUs

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sneax
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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby sneax » 31 Oct 2016 07:49

Oha - Interisting ... I will take some more Pics of the engine and post them here!
I have been only told that this is a Datsun 1800 engine... !

More interesting will be the "Race engine" ... that I still did not seen yet!

Thank you Okayfine ... I've downloaded the "How to Modify ..." book... will be my lecture on the upcoming trip to Panama! ;)

Since my experiance in 4 stroke car engine tuning is 80% V8 big blocks with tons of resources ... I have to ask:
Are there for Datsun L engines aluminum heads with big valves and small chamber? strokercranks for 2 liter volumen and more torque? forged pistons? electronic MSD ignition etc...?


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defdes
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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby defdes » 31 Oct 2016 11:27

I don't know f you could or want to or can legally, but if you could shoe horn an L series in there that would be the optimum.

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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby datzenmike » 31 Oct 2016 17:19

Image

Looks like a conversion with an adapter plate and and L series 71B transmission. Possibly mate in Oct '77 just a guess unless you can supply a picture of the front and rear right side? It could be from a 620 or a 280z car.... they are the same transmission.

Do you know if this 'race engine' is an L series or not? If L, it may just bolt right onto the transmission.


The L20B if you get one, is already 1956cc. Better wait and see what shows up.
"Nissan 'shit the bed' when they made these, plain and simple." McShagger510 on flattop SUs

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okayfine
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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby okayfine » 31 Oct 2016 18:12

sneax wrote:Are there for Datsun L engines aluminum heads with big valves and small chamber?


Datsun heads only came from the factory. Aside from the unobtainium OS Giken heads for L-series, I'm not aware of any aftermarket cylinder heads for Datsuns.

That said, L-series heads are aluminum, come in small chambers, and can have big valves installed. Find a good small-chamber core and have it rebuilt - big valves are just later ZX valves, so parts are off-the-shelf and just need to be cut and fitted.

sneax wrote: strokercranks for 2 liter volumen and more torque? forged pistons? electronic MSD ignition etc...?


No stroker cranks, but in many instances parts interchange, so if you find a compatible swap you can stuff a larger-stroke crank into a given block. Again, my frame of reference is L-series, so this may or may not also apply to J-series stuff. Forged pistons are available. Electronic ignition is also available from the factory (L-series) or could be modified to fit (J-series). MSD has/had a distributor for the L-series. Given the J-series was used later in other markets, they may have a factory EI already. There are very few Mexican 510 owners on The Realm, I'm not sure anyone here really has a concrete idea what was available there.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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RMS
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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby RMS » 31 Oct 2016 18:31

Image

the siamesed intake and one siamesed exhaust had me confused :?

if im not confused, shouldn't the center exhaust pipe be bigger ?

as many have told me about my goose neck : it is not good for high rpm. a redesign of your intake and exhaust could free up available horses.

your mga is a beautiful.
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!

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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby 2DoorJim » 01 Nov 2016 06:43

I don't know anything about this topic but here is an observation. If I'm not mistaken that motor you have is underhead cam and similar to what originally came in your car. The L series engine is much taller being overhead cam. Some basic measurements should be taken to see if there is sufficient clearance under the hood.

Nice old car, interesting to see it entered in pan American

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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby datzenmike » 01 Nov 2016 06:54

Engine size.
If you get an L16, an L18 crank and rods will fit with L16 pistons making a 1.7 but better to just get an L18. The L16 and most L18s had a cast iron exhaust header of 4 pipes into tow and the down pipe has the two into one to the 'muffler'. The L16 exhaust manifold is highly recommended and will fit all L heads even the W58.

If you get an L20,B the crank won't fit the earlier L16/18 but it is 2.0 liters as is. The Z22 engine from a 720 truck or '82-'83 200sc has a crank that will fit the L20B and with Z22 pistons makes the L20B out to 2.2 liters yet will appear to be an L20B on the outside.

Heads
The L heads are numbered on the L16 and a combination of letter and numbers on the L18/L20B. The 210 head on the L16 gives the best compression but valves and ports are small. You can replace the valves and port them or get the next larger closed chamber or 'peanut' A87 head from an L18. You can mill the underside to bring back the compression. The '75-'77 U67 L20B head is a much larger open chamber head that will drop the compression even farther (low 8s) but it does have large valves and ports. The U67 can be milled to raise the compression back up. The W58 L20B head is identical to the U67 but had round exhaust ports with steel liners. You can leave the liners or remove them and the rare imported W58 can be found with a closed chamber but the U67 never was. Yes the L16 cast header will work with it too.

The L20B and sometimes the A87 heads have a 'larger' cam with the same specs as the L16 SSS engine. The L20B cam is a nice small upgrade for the L16's 210 head.
"Nissan 'shit the bed' when they made these, plain and simple." McShagger510 on flattop SUs

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sneax
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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby sneax » 01 Nov 2016 09:01

Wow ... thats all great information! I have to learn and find out quite something....

I did not know that the L head has an overhead cam!
That might matter for the Reglement of the Carrera Panamericana! I have to check that!
I had been told my actually engine and as well the damaged race engine are Datsun 1800 engines! So I was assuming they are L engines!
I know the engine in the car has 3 mains and the race engine has 5... so I have been told.

The L18 L20 engines would be preferable over this underhead camed J engine, right?

btw I can not go bigger than 2000cc by the rules!

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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby 510rob » 01 Nov 2016 11:15

An L-series engine might be too tall for your existing hood profile, so check the rules on body mods as well.

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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby datzenmike » 01 Nov 2016 12:48

Rules????? If you aren't cheating.... you ain't trying hard enough!!! ........................ Smokey Yunick.

L20B then. 1958cc and about 95 hp @ 5,800 on a good day.
"Nissan 'shit the bed' when they made these, plain and simple." McShagger510 on flattop SUs

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Re: MG-A with Datsun 1800 needs to get FAST!

Postby Chickenman » 01 Nov 2016 14:32

Definitely looks like a J series, which is a copy of BMC's B Engine. It's not an A serie's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_J_engine

Not worth modifying IMHO. Very ancient push-rod design with limited performance and few parts available. An L serie's would be much better. A modified L20B should make 160+ crank hp easily with typical modifications such as twin Webers or Mikuni's, headers and a decent cam. L18 would be similar, but a bit less HP and torque. L18 is about 1" less in overall height than L20B.

If you are swapping engines something like a KA24DE or SR20DE ( Dual cam, 16 valve engines) may be better. The KA's go up to 2400 cc and the SR engines 2000cc.

Edit: Just noticed that you are limited to 2000cc's...so forget about the KA24DE. Too big. I'll leave the info for reference though.

KA24DE is a bit of a tall and bulky engine, but probably not more than the original BMC engines. SR20DE is very compact and lighter than a KA24DE or L serie's. You'd have to check dimensions for fitment. Tons of these engines in wrecking yards and dirt cheap. KA24DE easier to find than SR20DE.

KA24DE are Torque monsters and fairly low revving. KA24DE has more overall HP and Torque potential for modified Normally Aspirated engines ( No replacement for displacement ), but at the expense of more bulk and weight than SR20DE.

SR20DE are rev happy and best in a light car. If memory serves me correct the redline on the stock SR20DE was 8,000 or 8,500... from the factory. Please correct me if I'm wrong

KA24DE info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_KA_engine

http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=KA_Engine_Swap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_SR_engine

http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=SR_engine_swap

Now if your Race 1800 engine does turn out to be an L-Series, that is probably going to increase your HP by a minimum of 50 percent right off the Bat, compared to the ancient J serie's. Take some pictures when it comes in and get more specs.


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