TURBO Q & A FORUM

Engine, Transmission and related drivetrain.
510rob
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Post by 510rob » 09 Nov 2003 18:33

I agree that the 300ZX turbo car used a T3 series Garrett turbo. For a the T3's, the 60 trim compressor wheel is the only one that will make any decent HP. I don't think the "Super 60" was ever put on any factory cars; I'm pretty sure it was a Turbonetics aftermarket wheel, but I could be wrong

For the T3 series, the compressor wheels all share a common major diameter of 2.367". Their inducer diameters are as follows...
35 = 1.396" (mathematically a 34.8 trim)
40 = 1.484" (mathematically a 39.3 trim)
45 = 1.595" (mathematically a 45.4 trim)
50 = 1.674" (mathematically a 50.0 trim)
55 = 1.760" (mathematically a 55.3 trim)
60 = 1.830" (mathematically a 59.8 trim)
Super 60 = 1.900" (mathematically a 64.4 trim)

For the T3 series turbine side, I believe the standard wheel is 2.319" major diameter, and 1.918" exducer diameter.

Check out this page for info on junkyard T3 turbo turbine materials...
http://www.cs.du.edu/~ljanssen/turbo_overview.html

In Lee's turbo list, he show's the 280ZX having a 60-trim compressor, and a 0.48 cover - that will give quick pressure rise at the expense of limiting overall flow capacity... the BEST of the small junkyard turbos for 4-cyl swaps (in my opinion) is the Ford Thunderbird Turbocoupe unit with the 60-trim compressor, 0.60 A/R Compressor cover, and the 0.63 A/R exhaust cover

OVERALL, HERE IS THE GOLDMINE OF NUMBERS...
http://www.binaryjungle.com/pdfs/Turbonetics2002.pdf
I RECOMMEND SAVING THE pdf TO YOUR HARDDRIVE FOR REFERENCE IF YOU EVER NEED THE FLOW MAPS, PART NUMBERS, OR DIMENSIONS

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///FiveOneOh
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Post by ///FiveOneOh » 19 Nov 2003 16:59

ok so My L16 seems to be dieing.. and that dumb turbo kit is caling tome agian.. stupid turbo kit! I took the compressor apart just cuz... well cuz it had bolts and screws. kinda liek dads drill. I can;t turb the thing worth CRAP! I dout I can afford to get it rebiult. Is there anythign I can do myself?
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///FiveOneOh
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Post by ///FiveOneOh » 20 Nov 2003 16:01

....
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510rob
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Post by 510rob » 20 Nov 2003 17:58

Does the L16 need rebuilding, or the turbocharger?

Turbocharging a dying motor is a good way to kill the motor a little bit quicker... but if you don't care that's cool, (I don't care because it's not my motor), and there is certainly a type of trivial joy to be derived in doing things like that at times... thrashing the last ounce of life out of a motor...

If the turbo is hooped, but rebuildable, it will probably cost about $500 to rebuild it. If it is unrebuildable, well, hey...if it's the old Engine Air kit with a Schwitzer 3LD-168/0.68 spec blower, I've got one of those that I'm not going to use (hint hint hint), and it's in good shape...

What system do you have, and what turbo is it based on?

This is kind of unrelated, but what wastegate do you have on your kit?

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///FiveOneOh
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Post by ///FiveOneOh » 20 Nov 2003 18:51

I'm puttign it on a rebiult engine. I haev a spare 16 waiting. its the old Schwitzer kit with NO waste gate. it used the stock exaust back preasure to limit boost. I have no clue if the turbo can or can;t be rebiult... I just have a turbo.

Its bloody OLD kit thats all I really know...
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bertvorgon
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Post by bertvorgon » 20 Nov 2003 19:26

no, you cannot re-build it yourself. Balance is critical on these things and it is best left to the pros. Has the turbo been used? Did you just take the compressor housing off, or, did you take the compressor wheel off also? Does the kit have a steel base under the air-box? I am just wondering if it is original original, or has it an aluminum base like mine. It could be one of the modified kits.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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Post by 510rob » 21 Nov 2003 17:30

yeah, don't try to rebuild the rotating section yourself... if the shaft spins at more than 100,000rpm, how much shaft and wheel imbalance do you think you are going to need to wipe the bearings out? They are rebalanced when rebuilt, and I'm guessing that you don't have a Heins balancer or a VSR machine kicking around in the garage or basement...

read this article...
http://www.turbosunleashed.com/letter.htm

look at this webpage...
http://www.heins-balancing.com/index.html

then look at this page...
http://www.turbotechnics.com/turbo/turbofacts.htm

then look at this page...
http://www.turbotechnics.com/vsr/mk3.htm

then look at this page...
http://www.turbotechnics.com/turbo/balanceinfo.htm

then decide if you plan to fix it in the basement...

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///FiveOneOh
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Post by ///FiveOneOh » 22 Nov 2003 03:12

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///FiveOneOh
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Post by ///FiveOneOh » 22 Nov 2003 03:12

this is the junk manifold I got with it..
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510rob
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Post by 510rob » 22 Nov 2003 09:06

welllllll, it is definitely an ugly manifold, but it does work, soooooo...

(I have the exact same kit, and all of the original bits, and Keith's whole legendary car evolved around the same kit, and James' has the same kit too, soooooooo....)

We should do some wheeling & dealing - I have several choice bits from my turbo kit that I'm not going to use ever again, and I will sell to you at a fair price because it is only collecting dust, and you could get some good fun out of it. (my eternal project car went out of control on paper, and needed to be improved about a million different times, so now the old turbo system is sitting there, and most parts won't be used)

Here's a list of some of my old parts that you might be interested in to get yours running...
**really clean DGV 32/36 Weber + matched stock intake manifold
**aluminum intermediate box cover with a skookum sealed carb linkage
**cast cover has a welded inlet tube (a la Keith & Andy)
**2.5" dump pipe to pick up... (the rest of the exhaust never got finished, but that one dump pipe took me a while to fiddle with - I made it with the old cut & weld style with mandrel bend sections, and it will flow nicely...)
**AiResearch wastegate
**Schwitzer 3LD-168/0.68 turbo
**Andy-modified Holley fuel pressure regulator (the stock one that came with that kit was a piece of junk - throw it away!!!)
**A brand new bone-stock exhaust system front to back... for the museum?

If you are at all interested, let me know - I'm not trying to high pressure sell this stuff, I'm just saying you might be able to make use of some of it, and it is only occupying space in my basement right now, so... and I'll swing you a good-guy package deal on the bulk of it if you want...

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bertvorgon
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Post by bertvorgon » 22 Nov 2003 11:01

That was sure an ugly manifold, I do not remember my original one being like that. Rob, that was some interesting stuff on balancing. I have only had one turbo failure, and it was due to it going out of balance for some reason. There was no sign of ingesting anything. It just started to scream as I was cruising down #1. It wiped out the compressor housing and wheel. I remember that pressure regulator. It was a peice of crap. Dick was trying to keep the cost of the kit down. I paid 550.00 for that kit in 1973 and it WAS totally a bolt on. I did not have to buy anything for it. By contrast the Crown kit was just a few peices and was a suck through application. Any of the people that I ran across in the mid-70's that bought those kits here, all blew there motors up due to the un-regulated boost. Winter driving was almost not do able due to the fact the carb had no heat. Glad I never bought one of those. I might be driving carbs! Would'nt that be scary? FiveOneOh, you should take Rob up on his offer.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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///FiveOneOh
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Post by ///FiveOneOh » 23 Nov 2003 15:30

the engien its sitting on has a HUGE hole the #1 piston hehehe.

I'll give you a call later on tonight about that stuff rob.
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Post by Boaty » 24 Nov 2003 22:29

Ooh.. nasty... detonation issues? Or did one of those pesky valves come down and hit the piston at just the wrong moment?

(I love valve float. Tee Hee Hee...)
Steve Boatman
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1971 510 2DR | KA24DE

turbo510sss

L18 or L20 block????

Post by turbo510sss » 03 Jan 2004 15:00

Well worked on the 510 to day and founf out that my 250 horse power 2.2 liter L18 motor is runnin on three cylinders time for the new motor I guess. I have a couple questions. I want to know what would be a good motor to run with a turbo a L18 ro L20 block :?: What will give me a better compression and how much boost could I run to get a shit load of horsepower before the block takes a shit well maybe enough to make the motor run good for a long time, Or could I enter change parts from those motor to make one kick ass motor. I am going to take the L18 I am running now and see if I can dump a shit load if nitrous in it and see what I can get in the quartermile. I also want to know what company make a good fuel injection set up for the L seires motor and what computer should I run with it, and what type of fuel injectors would work best for the alppication :?: Thanks in advance Billy

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Post by 510rob » 03 Jan 2004 18:19

hmmm, lots of questions need lots of answers... in no particular order, here we go...



MOTORS

In a nutshell, L-series engines have REALLY strong cranks and blocks with REALLY shitty exhaust ports in the heads sitting on top of them (unless you were lucky enough to get the FP head kit, or an FIA head kit). They were built in the era PREDATING Finite Element Analysis (FEM), which basically makes everything as light and cheap as they can possibly get away with making it, which also means it breaks when you try to hot-rod the shit out of it... so they have heavy, over-built parts everywhere, and most importantly, A GOOD OILING SYSTEM... (the oil system has nothing to do with FEM either way)

with all of that said...

The L18 is same bore as a L20, but has a shorter stroke. So the L18 will theoretically rev higher than an L20, but it is a largely academic argument will little quantatative basis in the real world... so go for the L20 if you have both of them (L18 & L20) sitting in front of you.

I have seen L16 motors running up to 9500-10000 on a dyno (that sounded COOL!!!), and they were making just short of 200HP - that is a far cry from the new generation of 4-valve engines like the Toyota 4AG series that are making around 245HP in the Atlantic series formula cars... BUT!!! The toyota Atlantic motors only have three true stock Toyota parts - the block casting, the head casting and the valve cover casting, EVERYTHING else is aftermarket, and the cost is frightening ($15000US for a motor) On the other hand, those Datsun L-16s had lots of modified stock parts in them, and did a remarkably good job with those pieces... (and cost at least a little bit less, and lasted longer) (another side note, I had a chat with an Atlantic engine builder once, who told me a GOOD Altantic motor will make 245HP at the start of the race, and will be down to about 220-215HP at the end of the race, which is only about 30 minutes long, so think about that kind of durability...not very good if there's no prize money or sponsorship involved!)

I remember another old full-tilt dry-sumped "L-series" motor built around a Z24 block, Z22 crank, and fully modified and welded up U67 head. This motor ran to 8000rpm, with about 14:1 compression, and Ti valves and everything else (for those that ever saw one, it had that CRAZY old Electramotive L3 cam in it) - the lifespan of the crank was only about 12 hours at best before the fatigue cycling would get to it and it would start to crack from the inside out... this motor made somewhere between 215-235HP, and had HUGE torque output...

I know of a turbo L20 that had 13 YEARS on it before being rebuilt (Bert Vorgon's contraption) - depending on it's different configurations over the years, it was always making well over 250HP... and approaching 300HP by the end of the 13 years - THIS MOTOR NEVER REVVED OVER 8000RPM, AND ONLY EVER DID THAT HIGH RPM FOR A FEW SPURTS... it mostly stayed around 7000-7500 rpm... and lasted and lasted and lasted...whilst making very high torque numbers

Think about these facts...
raising RPM will kill the motor faster (exponential increase in mechanical stress loads with rpm change)
bigger motors make more power (yahoo!!!)
if the rpm increase of a smaller motor doesn't offset the increased displacement of the bigger motor, it's a waste of time...

So, with that said, run a big motor, and forget about RPM unless you are stuck by the rule book and you have to run a certain volume of motor...then you worry about running in the expensive RPM range (making decent torque/horsepower at over 8000rpm can get expensive very quickly!!!)



TURBOS AND COMPRESSION RATIO SUBJECT

Lowering your static compression ratio will let you run at a slightly higher turbo pressure ratio before the onset of detonation for your particular setup, but you will sacrifice throttle response below turbine range if you do it (drop the static compression a point or two)

Conversely, if you bump up the static compression, the motor will be more snappy off boost, and you will gain horsepower on boost; as the static compression drops, the unswept volume increases... take a 2000cc motor for this example

2000cc, 14:1 compression = 143cc unswept volume
2000cc, 10:1 compression = 200cc unswept volume
2000cc, 8:1 compression = 250cc unswept volume
2000cc, 7:1 compression = 286cc unswept volume

If you take the turbo into consideration, as soon as the valve opens, the turbo blows charge into the chamber and cylinder, so if you have a bigger unswept volume, it kind of adds to the displacement of the motor... so the 2.0L 7:1 motor is actually a 2286cc equivalent displacement, and the 2.0L 10:1 motor is a 2200cc motor... (remember - bigger motors make more power) Where's the trade off? You need to get the turbine turning and the compressor spinning before it will be a 2286cc motor system; until the turbo is making decent boost, the motor is only a 7:1 2.0L over-cammed wimp!!! On the other hand, if you had picked 10:1 compression, it would be a tough street motor until the turbo kicked in, then it would be an even tougher motor with the turbo...

The Porsche turbo cars from the late 70's would typically run around 7:1 compression, and lots of boost - that was their preference, and they won lots of races that way...

The first production turbo passenger car was the 1962 Oldsmobile F-85 with the optional Jetfire motor - 215ci (3500cc) all aluminum motor, 10.5:1 compression and about 5psi of boost...(read http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofjet.htm if you want more info)

Once again, it really depends on what you actually plan to do with the motor...and your personal taste...



EFI SUBJECT

Lots of people make good EFI computers - look for a management system that does away with the lousy distributor timing while you are at it because usually it doesn't cost much more with than without...

If you are trying to impress BMW and Porsche techies, buy a Motec system and hire them to come to your dyno site to tune it for you.

If you are on a budget, and at all sensible, seriously consider the SDS system - we've had great success with it on a maximum effort turbocharged SPM race car; we are totally satisfied with their system and their service, and I personally think they offer unbeatable value - all of the parts used in the system are top quality, and their service is unbelievebly good - they should be a model for other companies on how to keep customers happy, and keep customers...

TWM sells a complete intake setup to convert to EFI if you want to bolt straight money onto your motor with no fabrication time or work...

As far as an actual injector flow rate, that is really based on your planned HP output; 550cc injectors on a 300HP 4 cylinder motor are a good match for gasoline flow rates - alcohol applications will require about double the flow rate of gasoline applications.



Robert F.

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