510, 350z swap???

[HudsonMC]

I don't think anyone would disagree that we all could do a better job of welcoming these newbies. Reality check was necessary, but come on guys, let's let them down easy. Sarcasm and assumptions of his mechanical skill or lack thereof do nobody any good. It just pisses people off.

[okayfine]

Garbage in, garbage out. Assumptions do tend to piss people off - but we should not have to make them. A new poster taking a couple hours to read through some of the intro stuff will get a good enough idea of the basics that it isn't asking for a miracle that they make the effort. Mr. Patty's Into post was 11:09pm. His VQ post? 11:19pm.

OP's second post ever is "wha'Ima gunna need to VQswap this bitch?" His fourth post is "wha'Ima gunna need to KAswap this bitch?" OP provided zero information for anyone here to make even an educated guess in answer to his $ question. What are we supposed to do with that? The attitude was already there from the OP and he lost it before anyone (me) really cracked on him:
viewtopic.php?t=26085#p222605

We've had plenty, PLENTY of new-to-510 people come in and thrive here. Take Entrymax as a perfect example. He's a kid who's new to 510s and had done some leg-work, and as a result everyone else here has been enthusiastic about helping him when he needs it.

I try to welcome new Realm members and get them started on a good foot. I've written thousands of words on new-to-510 thoughts and methods, and I've got another 8,000-word 510 Buyer's Guide I'm finishing up. If Spencer provides The 510 Realm forum and we all contribute to making it a better place by way of information and experience...and we get guys like Patty who flame out in a fit of "I WANT A PONY!"...well, you take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of life.

[bertvorgon]

I must agree with Hudson on this one, I have never seen a topic go South so fast. I know it did not start out very well by PatyCakes, but, I think we need to take the higher road, and while we KNOW most of these type of projects never get finished, lets give the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather that than WE look like coming across as assholes on the Web.

[S15DET]

I tried to be nice, take the high road, and even invited him to stick around so that we could help him do it right.

I think he was just wanting a quick answer, but didn't believe us when we explained that there isn't a quick answer. With modern-ish cars, it's easy, you buy a known "kit" of parts form well-known vendors and bolt it all on and you're done. With our cars, there is no catalog, there's an unexpected amount of custom fab required. That's the difference, and that's why there's no quick answer to these type of questions.

We need a more clear way to explain this to new-commers looking for quick answers. They want a Twitter-sized answer, and we rightfully expect a sit-down conversation and planning session. Maybe it's a generational difference?

[okayfine]

With our cars, there is no catalog, there's an unexpected amount of custom fab required. That's the difference, and that's why there's no quick answer to these type of questions.

We need a more clear way to explain this to new-commers looking for quick answers.

I linked him to this:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16460

80% of that would apply to Patty and his VQbitch. It would have at least given him the idea that he needed to tell us that he was a certified welder, master fabricator, and great-great-great-great grandson of Thomas Edison.

If there's something else that needs to be said/written, I'd be happy to write it. But you have to get the Patty's of this world to read it.

[S15DET]

IF he followed the link and gave it a 30 second read I would be surprised. You are right, and this is a great page, but I bet in his mind he saw all those words on the page, and moved on. "I don't want their help, all I want is a price" is what he may have thought.

My oldest son is sometimes like this. He wants to go something or make something, but there's no thought about the process or the details.

[bertvorgon]

There's..... DETAILS........?

[Sleepys-14]

30k at a good shop could get you a datsun 510 with a vq swap and all of the supporting quality pieces(suspension,drivetrain, plumbing,electronics,body work). I think thats all he wants to know. I would say no less than 20k will get you all of that.

[HudsonMC]

Yeah, sucks, but wall of text turns some people off.

If we don't want those people, that's one thing. If we're actually here to help, then a different approach might be warranted...

I agree with Sleepy. I think that's what he was looking for. Overshooting it is better than nothing. Start with GMP (guaranteed maximum price), and start whittling it down based on info he does or doesn't provide. He may just walk away at that point, but at least we haven't pissed him off.

Edit: That's not to say I don't think we should point EVERY newbie to Julian's awesome intro-to-510 threads. I think we should, in addition to whatever it is I said above.

[okayfine]

Yeah, sucks, but wall of text turns some people off.

I'm unsure there's any other way to get that information across. It was written specifically due to a couple posters lack of knowledge about the information we needed to help them. There isn't a way to short-circuit it and provide real experienced-based answers (estimates of cost, ideas of problems/fixes, etc.).

If we don't want those people, that's one thing. If we're actually here to help, then a different approach might be warranted...

What would that approach be?

Brad tried to save this thread by being the bigger man. What did he get for his effort? Jason gave him the non-sarcastic version of my post. What did Jason get for his effort?

It's not a question of wanting "those people." It's a question of, at some point, "those people" are going to have to help us help them. How do you eliminate that part of the process and still accomplish anything worthwhile for the poster?

I agree with Sleepy. I think that's what he was looking for. Overshooting it is better than nothing. Start with GMP (guaranteed maximum price), and start whittling it down based on info he does or doesn't provide. He may just walk away at that point, but at least we haven't pissed him off.

We never found out anything to even get to a WAG of cost. We don't even know where Patty lives. He may not even live in North America. Then what? We don't know anything about the condition of the base car. We don't know his goals, his wants....we don't know diddly-do.

--------------

We could all throw out WAGs of $30,000. It's a meaningless answer and doesn't serve the OP or anyone coming along and trying to do research before posting a similar question.

It seems absurd to reduce the experience of the members of The Realm to offering up WAGs simply because some people can't be bothered to help us help them.

[two_68_510s]

Since this is, in fact, a forum, my 2 cents worth.

After the OP first 3 or 4 posts I was thinking, dude, what is with the anger issues?

The tone was tolerant and helping to that point, even after major impatience by the OP was publicly displayed.

No, I think this cat owes the forum an apology, not the other way round.

[okayfine]

Yeah, sucks, but wall of text turns some people off.

Untitled-1.jpg (149.33 KiB) Viewed 4518 times

Fixed.

[jason]

In this particular instance the fellow was not going to be happy with any answer that did not suit his circumstances and budget. He was getting ruder as he got more frustrated and of course that elicited the normal response. If he has some common sense, he'd take a look through the recommended reading and gauge some rough numbers in his head. If he's not willing to go through that thought process, to do that kind of work, then spoon feeding him answers isn't going to be helpful as he will not be able to do the build anyhow. My typical attitude is give them an answer as best I can and move on if he flips as this fellow seems to have done....

[HudsonMC]

Alright, I went back and reread this thread. It is quite the train wreck. Admittedly, may not be a good example of what I'm talking about. This guy may have been beyond saving. I'll admit it. I'm sorry.

However (since we're talking about it), I think this is an ongoing problem with the way new, inexperienced, and (probably) impatient newbies are treated around here. I shouldn't have to dig up the countless similar threads to get this point across. This is an open discussion on what needs to be improved, if anything, and how to do it. I didn't like where this thread ended up and just wanted to give my $0.02. Everybody *miiiight* have left here happy. Perhaps not satisfied, but happy.

The 510 community is different than any other community I've been involved with. People coming from Hondas, Jeeps, USDM, or any other group with a huge and supportive aftermarket are not going to understand how this works. They're probably going to be a little like PattyCakes here, minus the latent anger...Sarcasm and copy/pasted links are going to be frustrating for someone not used to the 510 "universe" or not used to the level of involvement, information, and maturity this community expects from its members. As soon as a thread turns south, everyone should be doing their best to turn it back around instead of feeding the fire and making it worse.

I don't know what the answer is, but that's why I brought it up.

[okayfine]

and (probably) impatient newbies are treated around here.

If they aren't going to do any homework and don't understand why we just don't answer their question, nothing can be done. As they see it, we don't answer it, when in reality we can't. To them, the difference is nonexistent, only the fact that their question hasn't been answered is understood. And then they lose their shit.

Say we go back in time and 510rob posts "$30,000" as the second post in this thread. You know and I know and everyone else knows what happens next"

"Bullsht!@ I fnd VQ on CL fer $1500, yo! You be trippin'! Idn't ned this shit!@$E Audi5000"

So we can't win by asking questions. We can't win by giving a WAG answer. Dude's going to see that number, think we're either full of it or making fun of him, and we're at the same end point as we got to in this thread.

People coming from Hondas, Jeeps, USDM, or any other group with a huge and supportive aftermarket are not going to understand how this works.

And every time people do come from other more modern or more supported makes and mention that in their intro post or some follow-up post, I make particular mention that the 510 world isn't like the Honda/240SX/Z/Chevelle world, cite examples, etc. But, again, we can't act on information that isn't given to us. And recently we're being grumpy old men for asking.

Sarcasm and copy/pasted links are going to be frustrating for someone not used to the 510 "universe" or not used to the level of involvement, information, and maturity this community expects from its members.

Well, let's be fair. The sarcasm comes long after the copy/pasted links. But all the same, each new-to-510 owner isn't a special little snowflake. All the information 99.9% of new-to-510 owners need already exists. The newest 510 is over 40 years old, much has been done, written, documented, and photographed about any fix or mod any new-to-510 owner is going to need. Reinventing the wheel each time someone new to 510s comes on board seems like a huge waste of time and an exercise in frustration.

If that's the way The 510 Realm wants to go, it's Spencer's party. I came into the 510 world relatively late compared to many here or on the old BB list. You know what I didn't do? I didn't roll in as a wanna-be big playa, demand answers to BS questions, then call everyone fucks.
I asked questions.
Some of them were stupid questions.
I didn't buy a bare, used SSS head from Spreadbury because it needed valves and I thought it had to be SSS-special valves.
I got flamed.
I learned.
I started writing for DQ, then I became editor, then it died and I created The 510 Archives to host as much 510 information as I could get my hands on, all so people new and old to the hobby would be able to access that information.

As soon as a thread turns south, everyone should be doing their best to turn it back around instead of feeding the fire and making it worse.

Brad did make the effort even before the thread turned south. Jason made the effort after the thread started to turn south. No one piled on until after Patty flamed out. Everyone knew where this thread was going from the OP.

And there's an equal or greater chance that I'm wrong. That Patty cakes is the next Jesse James/Monster Garage host. I'm still at a loss as to how we're supposed to answer Patty's "How much to swap this bitch?" question when that is the full extent of the information we have to go on in order to come up with a number.