de-tuning a race engine

Problems, ideas and comments specific to engine swaps.
User avatar
defdes
Supporter
Posts: 4993
Joined: 12 May 2005 14:45
Location: Vermont

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by defdes » 31 Aug 2018 05:42

icehouse wrote:
28 Aug 2018 08:47

Like our buddy Hienz says "A guy will post a picture of a 510 lug nut he got for free and spend a zillion dollars building the car around a free lug nut instead of waiting for a nice car to come up for sale at a fraction of what he will have into that lug nut." Hienz says it better!
Hey Jeff this is the first mention I have heard of Hienz since the old NWDE forum days, is he active on Ratsun or anywhere?

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10438
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by bertvorgon » 31 Aug 2018 08:16

My engine is turbo-charged, a Frankenstein 2 litre, built to rev to 8,000+ RPM.
Specialty uses JE forged pistons, custom designed for my application to deal with lots of heat on the piston tops, and the top ring land a bit down on the piston. Ring gap is critical.
Crower forged connecting rods and then the crank etc, balanced.
My cylinder head is nothing super trick, just ported nicely with a "turbo grind" camshaft profile, lots of lift and short duration.
As I am turbo-charged I just use the stock intake manifold ( the one with NO water cooling), it has been majorly ported..boost makes up for a lot of deficiencies...I then stuff the air through a highly modified Weber 32/36 carb.
The block was totally de-burred internally, and bored using a torque plate to ENSURE round cylinders. Due to Specialty's experience, he knows what clearances work and how much the pistons grows when heated up. I run 10:1 static compression ratio which is high for a turbo motor, that was done for a reason and I have to run high octane fuel on the street ( Avgas 100LL ) We have pump octane of 94 ( R + M ) here but even that is too low for my motor.

There is a high volume oil pump, water pump, Nissan comp pan, LARGE radiator, LARGE oil cooler...Ignition well set up....basically all the STUFF to make a motor live when it gets really used.

All in all, it is nothing super trick at all, just well assembled and then I have looked after it. Norm's is basically the same variation, good parts and built correctly..WITH knowledge.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
icehouse
Posts: 3269
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 17:06
Location: Everett Wa

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by icehouse » 31 Aug 2018 08:54

Just remember, if you get a stock SR it will take a beating 8 days a week without blinking. If you rebuild this race engine it will be a constant tight rope walk keeping it happy. I my personal experience everyone says they want a racecar 510, but what they really want a car with power steering, power brakes, a comfy seat, and loud exhaust. Their "racing" is an occasional freeway pull with another car.


My favorite example is my buddy Dave, he had a 2.4L L series (2.4 crank in a 2.2 block) which was super high compression so it required race gas, we figured since it already required race gas lets boost it. It made serious power and was a blast to take on fun runs. Although he rarely drove it, with the big cam it idled rough, got hot in traffic, had some issues I couldn't tune out, not the end of the world just annoying. It always need something done. After 11 years he sold the car. He just picked up a super clean 260z and is doing an S15 SR20DET swap. His quote "I just want to drive this one." Here is a picture of the 510. I build the custom parts, for the intake we used part of Byron's custom carb manifold. I'm not trying to talk you out of the motor just letting you know my experiences.


Image


Image








defdes wrote:
31 Aug 2018 05:42
icehouse wrote:
28 Aug 2018 08:47

Like our buddy Hienz says "A guy will post a picture of a 510 lug nut he got for free and spend a zillion dollars building the car around a free lug nut instead of waiting for a nice car to come up for sale at a fraction of what he will have into that lug nut." Hienz says it better!
Hey Jeff this is the first mention I have heard of Hienz since the old NWDE forum days, is he active on Ratsun or anywhere?

He hangs out on Ratsun still, he posts a lot helping new guys get there cars going. You know him. He sold his convertible 510 and talks about selling the other ones.
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

User avatar
bertvorgon
Supporter
Posts: 10438
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 20:45
Location: White Rock, B.C. Canada

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by bertvorgon » 31 Aug 2018 09:16

Jeff has very valid points, as the real world of traffic driving really does dictate what really works.

Even I had to de-tune my motor once I stopped racing, just to make in good in traffic and at stop lights. Nothing worse than a car that falls flat when you take off from a light.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

User avatar
Byron510
Moderator
Posts: 12036
Joined: 01 Jul 2003 23:06
Location: Maple Ridge, BC

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by Byron510 » 31 Aug 2018 09:19

Both Keith and Norm spent big $$$ getting their L motors to the place they are - but they work well. Keith's turbo motor is understated, it was 25 years of development to get the 50 years of service! Norms N/A motor has 40 years of Andy's proven race knowledge in it. Both cost 5-10x more than you'd spend on a N/A SR or SRDET to get the same output. And likely twice what it would take to have a running motor, driving in your 510 by the time the dust settles (EMS, Ignition, motor/tranny mounts, cooling system, IC if necessary ect). And as Jeff alluded, the newer motors are just simply reliable right out of the box. They are getting older, and I totally get the "local parts" supply. Man, I'm a dyed in the wool L-series guy - trust me, but I too can certainly see the benefits of the stock SR/KA output.

The only issue we face today is that both of these platforms are getting older, and harder to find as noted earlier in your post. It's really up to you, lost of good advise has floated through this thread.

Byron
Love people and use things,
because the opposite never works.

User avatar
ray23
Posts: 26
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:20
Location: Temecula, Ca

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by ray23 » 31 Aug 2018 10:11

Just want to make sure I have everyone's names right? it's nice to meet you all and I'm sure I'll meet more as I go along this forum. "Hats off" to all of you!. I really appreciate the time, knowledge and advice thats being shared here. lets just say my "tool bag" is a bit heavier now and I'll re-asses. This just shows you can never stop learning-heard it and lived it in the past 24yrs in the Navy. I'll post some pics of the car as soon as I figure out how :lol: again thank you very much.


Jeff=icehouse
Bertvorgon=Keith
Byron510=Byron
Ray
72 Datsun 510 2 door
86 Ford F250 extra cab 6.9 turbo Diesel 2WD

User avatar
ray23
Posts: 26
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:20
Location: Temecula, Ca

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by ray23 » 31 Aug 2018 10:14

same Jeff from JBC?
Ray
72 Datsun 510 2 door
86 Ford F250 extra cab 6.9 turbo Diesel 2WD

User avatar
icehouse
Posts: 3269
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 17:06
Location: Everett Wa

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by icehouse » 31 Aug 2018 11:44

Yep!
ray23 wrote:
31 Aug 2018 10:14
same Jeff from JBC?
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

User avatar
funwithmonkeys
Supporter
Posts: 1023
Joined: 05 Sep 2013 09:34
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by funwithmonkeys » 31 Aug 2018 20:21

As Keith said mine is much like his. JE pistons custom for the application and crower forged aluminum rods. Balanced crank. Z22 block and I have this V912 head. Andy spent a bunch of time on the head. It is matched to the intake and exhaust.
Yes I could have had more out of a newer motor for less...or a LOT more for the same price. Sometimes when I am following Keith I think I want more power but then I realize I don't want to spend the money it will take to get there. My car is already very fast with 180WHP and I can still go full throttle in a corner without worrying about it swapping ends.
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?

User avatar
ray23
Posts: 26
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:20
Location: Temecula, Ca

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by ray23 » 31 Aug 2018 21:03

you would be Norm?
Ray
72 Datsun 510 2 door
86 Ford F250 extra cab 6.9 turbo Diesel 2WD

User avatar
funwithmonkeys
Supporter
Posts: 1023
Joined: 05 Sep 2013 09:34
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by funwithmonkeys » 31 Aug 2018 21:20

I am.
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?

User avatar
icehouse
Posts: 3269
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 17:06
Location: Everett Wa

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by icehouse » 01 Sep 2018 20:42

My favorite car to ride in at my autox event is a first year rabbit with 400whp. It’s insane when the power kicks it. It reminds me of riding my YZ250. My tame NA SR is so damn boring afterwards. Maybe you should take some rides before redoing the KA. I rode in my buddies SR 510. 550cc injectors and a tune. Made over 300 whp and almost 300 ft lbs of torque at the wheels.
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

510rob
Moderator
Posts: 4666
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 23:37
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact:

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by 510rob » 01 Sep 2018 23:08

icehouse wrote:
01 Sep 2018 20:42
My favorite car to ride in at my autox event is a first year rabbit with 400whp. It’s insane when the power kicks it. It reminds me of riding my YZ250. My tame NA SR is so damn boring afterwards. Maybe you should take some rides before redoing the KA. I rode in my buddies SR 510. 550cc injectors and a tune. Made over 300 whp and almost 300 ft lbs of torque at the wheels.
What about Frank's turbo KA when it had the big cams in it?

User avatar
ray23
Posts: 26
Joined: 29 Jan 2018 19:20
Location: Temecula, Ca

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by ray23 » 03 Sep 2018 09:34

just like you mentioned, I just want to enjoy driving the car, make it comfortable (ac/ps etc. minus the loud exhaust) but I also want to have the HP when I need it. I don't know anyone else that has a 510 in my area, but a test drive would be great. If I decide to build the L18, does anyone know who's selling a SHORT intake manifold for weber side drafts? I'm planning on putting a brake booster and would need to make a bit of room. I'm doing cost analysis between both engines-built L18, race KA de tuned and S15 swap. My assumption is that I'll only save 2-3K between the 3 engines after everything is done, the L18 being the least cost(but not reaching 200HP, old tech getting harder to procure parts). S15 and detuned race KA probably about the same cost, between detuning the engine and finding the rest to get it running and s15 complete but will need the modifications-crossmember, electric fuel pump, wiring and etc.
Ray
72 Datsun 510 2 door
86 Ford F250 extra cab 6.9 turbo Diesel 2WD

User avatar
icehouse
Posts: 3269
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 17:06
Location: Everett Wa

Re: de-tuning a race engine

Post by icehouse » 03 Sep 2018 14:08

510rob wrote:
01 Sep 2018 23:08
icehouse wrote:
01 Sep 2018 20:42
My favorite car to ride in at my autox event is a first year rabbit with 400whp. It’s insane when the power kicks it. It reminds me of riding my YZ250. My tame NA SR is so damn boring afterwards. Maybe you should take some rides before redoing the KA. I rode in my buddies SR 510. 550cc injectors and a tune. Made over 300 whp and almost 300 ft lbs of torque at the wheels.
What about Frank's turbo KA when it had the big cams in it?
Franks car was fun too! I never rode in it on a closed corse at full tilt though. Something about 1 minutes straight of wreckless mode. So excited to boost my car!! Been far to long.
"People don't like it when shit doesn't match their rule of thumb." Sam

Post Reply