Cranking issue

Paint, body preparation and modification, interior work and electrical
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bertvorgon
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Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 29 Nov 2016 07:59

What do you think of this issue?

Last year, when I would first get in the car in the morning, it hardly cranked over, really slooowwww...almost like a very dead battery.

Battery is good? and on a maintainer. It does start, thanks to my obviously very good ignition, it lights off. The rest of the day it cranks just fine.

This year it did/does the same thing. two weeks ago I undid and cleaned all my engine ground and battery cable grounds, even putting in a new battery ground. I cleaned all the positive terminals at the starter and the battery. This morning I thought I would see if it would crank with the new ground strap..super slow again...but it did light off. I let it run a few minutes to temp, shut off and the re-start, cranked really strong.

Alternator is charging, lights and horn strong.

I suspect either the starter has a weird issue, or the battery.... Starter was re-built a few years ago.

Thoughts....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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RMS
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby RMS » 29 Nov 2016 08:18

bad bush in starter nose, too tight without heat. armature bearing bad or grease has turned to wax.
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!

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510wizard
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby 510wizard » 29 Nov 2016 09:01

If the problem is constant on outside temperature, I would put a voltmeter right on the battery and one across the starter and notice the readings when the problem occurs. If the reading on the battery voltmeter doesn't drop when cranking, but the voltmeter on the starter does, then you have bad wiring. If both voltmeters stay up then it's the starter. If both drop then the battery has problems. Be sure to install the meters across the components, not from the components to ground. I use Fluke meters with the memory function, so I don't have to stare at the meters, works great on intermittent problems.

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bertvorgon
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 29 Nov 2016 10:29

So I am clear, and thanks for the help, me and Mr.Electron have never been friends.

As our batteries are in the trunk...I will put a volt meter ACROSS the positive and negative terminals....

and, put a volt meter ACROSS the two main terminals on the starter motor....

and then crank the car......

The problem is consistent with the COLD start, first thing of the day, cold being defined by ambient temperature. It is as thought the SYSTEM, once it has some residual heat, does not have a problem

James as it turns out has had the same problem, so will will test BOTH cars. I checked my log book and I had the starter rebuilt two and a bit years ago...which now in reflection is when the problem has showed up.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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66DUCE
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby 66DUCE » 29 Nov 2016 11:50

As already stated it could be a mechanical issue or an electrical issue. Only true way to check for the mechanical issue would be to pull the starter and check the starter itself. Secondly (and as it is assembled ) is the electrical, typical voltage drop per connection should be 0.2v 200mv or less. To do proper voltage drop readings the fuel/ignition needs to be disabled so the engine cranks but does not fire. On the high current side of the starter connect the voltmeter positive lead (red) to the battery positive connection (where the main battery cable comes from trunk mounted battery) and the negative lead (black) to the main Motor terminal on the starter motor. This reading while cranking should be less than 0.2v or 200mv this will check the connection on the solenoid. You want to have a voltage drop of approximately battery voltage from the Motor terminal to ground (again while cranking). You also need to measure the voltage drop on the ground side from the starter motor case positive lead (red) and to ground. Again this needs to be less than 0.2v 200mv. Make sure that you have a complete ground from engine to battery and engine to body/frame. If voltage drop readings exceed 0.2v 200mv per connection clean connection and try again.
As you have stated that this only happens when cold/first start you will need to prepare the car the night before.

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bertvorgon
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 30 Nov 2016 15:12

I have now assembled my crack team of engineers, electrical wizards, battery specialists, copper refiners, connector specialists, the latest in state of the art testing equipment, two pots of coffee and a box of Tim Horton's donuts, for the test tomorrow morning......stay tuned.....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

datzenmike
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby datzenmike » 30 Nov 2016 21:05

Oil is thicker / colder early in the morning that later in the day. This is why it restarts so well after just a few minutes of running.
"Nissan 'shit the bed' when they made these, plain and simple." McShagger510 on flattop SUs

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bertvorgon
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 01 Dec 2016 05:34

I get the cold oil/drag issue for sure.

What I'm saying is that after a few minutes of trying to crank the car, NOT RUNNING, the starter motor all of a sudden cranks like jack the bear. It goes from the full on almost dead battery type scenario to full on super strong crank.

I have had no issue when the temp was 40F outside at Knox, with 20/50 race oil in the thing.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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James
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby James » 01 Dec 2016 05:56

Well - that would most likely eliminate the battery. Maybe the starter is in a different rotational starting point/different part of the windings on the second start, and will rotate better? Def seems like an odd problem.....
Finished is better than perfect......

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bertvorgon
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 01 Dec 2016 06:56

That is what I have thought...headlights bright..horns LOUD...etc.

My Team are but a few hours away from our test, and it is cold in the back of my plant right now, 49F. at the moment.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

BrandonS
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby BrandonS » 01 Dec 2016 07:21

You said your battery is in the trunk and I know you said you redid your ground wire, but does your negative run from the trunk to the engine block/starter or to the chassis? If to the chassis, check your block/starter to chassis ground.

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bertvorgon
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 01 Dec 2016 07:38

I do have a ground cable right from the block by the starter motor, to chassis ground. I had removed that and cleaned the bolts, the metal strap flanges.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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bertvorgon
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 01 Dec 2016 09:11

Here we go..

13 volts at both the battery and the starter motor..pre-crank.

Battery voltage dropped to 9 and the starter motor dropped to 0.08 volts during cranking.

voltage back to 12 - 13 after cranking stopped.....

So, what is it do you think?
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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66DUCE
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby 66DUCE » 01 Dec 2016 13:08

I would load test the battery as you stated the battery voltage dropped to 9volts, minimum voltage should be 9.6volts during cranking. In your previous post you also stated that it cranks normal then cranks like a dead battery indicates to me that the battery is sulfated and needs to be replaced. Unless you have a carbon pile load tester to load battery to 1/2 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) you could take it somewhere to be tested? I would assume you have the battery on a trickle charger or regular charger? 13 volts before and after testing is showing that the battery has good reserve voltage but it is unable to support the amperage being drawn from it. A battery that passes a proper load test will give you the proper amperage output while cranking and voltage should remain (above 9.6volts)

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bertvorgon
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Re: Cranking issue

Postby bertvorgon » 01 Dec 2016 16:13

All right, so my engineering team and I did test # 2.

I disconnected my battery, both at the battery and the starter motor. Then, James drove his truck into the bay, to use his battery.

We checked his voltage, 12.7 volts, and checked the voltage at the starter motor, with jumper cables attached to the positive on the starter, and ground to the block. 12.7 volts across the starter terminals.

We then tried to crank.....SAME scenario...voltage at the starter dropped to .08 and it hardly turned over...I am pulling the starter out tomorrow.....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer


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