Turn signal flasher relay

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 15 Jun 2018 19:53

Ok, thanks Robyn..so I am not unique at this point, that makes me feel better! I did wonder if there is just a plain line loss to that back area?!.

I spent today off and on between naps studying the wiring diagram, I think I have it kinda figured out. There are many places where a bad connection could cause issue. I am going to try to get the turn signal lever at the steering column out and clean the contacts to start. Actually, I will start at the fuse box as that really is the start of Mr. Electrons trip all over the place. The whole flasher circuitry is one of the most convoluted on our cars as I see it..

We have two flashers...three switches (left, right, and then all four on through the 4 way flasher switch) a multiple of connectors under the dash, two connections at the rear, plus grounds, then four connections that the front, power and ground.

By changing that front left bulb, what wiggling or whatever caused the rear voltage to go up just over one volt and fire up the LED bulb.

In reading back over my posts, I noticed that the first time I checked voltage where the turn flasher is, I read 12 volts, then, the day I got the bulbs working, it was down at 10'ish volts, still enough to fire things, but, that sure points out why the conventional incandescent bulb was dull, and, as I have followed some of you on our drives, yours are dull too. I am going to go back and double check that flasher plug voltage, as I can't remember if I used my old analog meter or my digital one.

I'm actually kinda finding this like a thrown gauntlet now, I really want to see if I/we can figure this out....

What are you diagnostic hours Robyn.......I can bring coffee.....
Last edited by bertvorgon on 16 Jun 2018 17:27, edited 1 time in total.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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RMS
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by RMS » 16 Jun 2018 10:33

well I dint get up till 9am..... well after your coffee drinking time.

made up two jumpers and deleted the flashers rear left turn was @ 10v
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 16 Jun 2018 12:44

So that is virtually the same as mine at this point.

I may pop over to the garage tomorrow and do some wire wiggling.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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funwithmonkeys
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by funwithmonkeys » 16 Jun 2018 14:10

I will check mine tonight for you. I recently went through all the connections in the turn signal/flasher wiring. I put Deoxit on every connection in trying to find out where my fault was. Turns out the turn signal switch needs to be grounded to the column for it to work.
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 16 Jun 2018 17:24

Thanks Norm, that would be good.

Today I stopped by Robyn's and we did some testing. He had the same lower/low voltage at the back of his cars also.
After working our way back and unplugging the harness at the steering column, that feed the turn signals, we finally found a full battery voltage at 12+. So, we think that the restriction is in the switch itself, left right. The voltage drop was pretty consistent the rest of the way to the rear of the car, just like mine.

Robyn went and dragged a spare turn signal out of his monumental pile of spare parts and we dissected it. There are incredibly small contacts in there, which we think over time both become subtle burnt at the contact point. The contacts points are no bigger than 2MM round, with just a very small actual contact point of less than 1 mm I would say. What is this doing as a point of resistance?

So, I think we need to focus on how to clean that switch and possibly the four way flasher switch as well, just because. Although, in the life of our cars, how often has that switch been used?
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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funwithmonkeys
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by funwithmonkeys » 16 Jun 2018 18:39

For my turn signal switch I cleaned the contacts with a small piece to 600 grit sand paper and then put on some deoxit to prevent corrosion and oxidization.

http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.188/.f
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 16 Jun 2018 18:57

So did you take that switch apart? It is all sealed up. That little spring loaded ball bearing looked like a bear to get back in and together?!

I must admit that I am gun shy to take mine apart, I may just spray it with cleaner inside if I can. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"...as I do have functioning lights with the LEDs, I must admit I'm hesitant to maybe wreck my indicator.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 16 Jun 2018 19:40

While I think of it, as Robyn and I try to figure this out, it would be great if we could get another few voltage readings from non messed with harness's, specially the voltage at that rear turn signal socket, left and right.

If we see a pattern of low voltage, it kinda either speaks to a general resistance through that switch.

Thanks
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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RMS
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by RMS » 17 Jun 2018 08:40

all seal up! held the ball in place with a dab of dielectric grease
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 17 Jun 2018 08:46

Of Course, what a good idea!

I am going over to the 510 today and do some cleaning of front grounds and take the steering column apart.

I will THINK about whether I will pull switch out.....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 17 Jun 2018 12:00

Here is a snap shot of the flasher and turn signal part of the system.

The signal flasher SHOULD have 12 volts at that connection, as that has come from the four way flasher switch.

As I tested, it does, so the next issue is at the flasher butt connector ( at least based in this diagram) for any issue.

After that is the switch issue itself, if you test the next connector down stream, in the steering column and it has less than 12 volts, which is what Robyn and I experienced.

So, 1 - 5 is the left turn, the 1 - 4 is the right turn.
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"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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funwithmonkeys
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by funwithmonkeys » 17 Jun 2018 17:57

I did a quick test on mine. I'm going to try to get a jumper on the flasher connection to get an exact voltage but my Fluke meter reads pretty quickly and has peak hold so this should be close. Battery voltage is 12.56V. Driver rear gets 11.09V and passenger gets 11.59V when using 4 ways and 11.04 and 11.45 on the turn signal. I would expect a bit higher voltage with the relay out and the connector shorted. I will do my best to get it for you tonight.
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?

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bertvorgon
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by bertvorgon » 17 Jun 2018 18:28

That is GREAT, it does show we are losing voltage as a common theme in my opinion. You had said you cleaned your turn signal, as my question was, did you take it apart?

I did not get over to my car today but am going over to clean some connections tomorrow.

Yes, the jumper gives you stable voltage at the rear for sure.

There is no doubt in my mind as to why most of our 510's I follow have duller lights, I bet we are all suffering low voltage back there, which is reflected in how an incandescent bulbs glows. I think at least the LED bulbs that once they fire up, are pretty bright.

I am going to retest mine, then do the cleaning and measure as I go.
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

Keith Law
1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by funwithmonkeys » 17 Jun 2018 19:00

Yes going through the 40+ feet of wire in my car and multiple connectors I would expect some voltage drop. Especially with the 49 year old wires and connectors. I know the deoxit helped mine but now I am wondering how hard would it really be to rewire the car with modern connectors and new wire.
If no one from the future comes back to stop you from doing it then how bad of a decision can it really be?

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RMS
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Re: Turn signal flasher relay

Post by RMS » 17 Jun 2018 22:31

most modern connectors are junk! we had a go at the gm water proof style on a military truck .... what a pain to work with and service after a few years.
with some deep hunting new stock 70s Japaneses connectors like the stock 510 connectors are available. a post with links exists on the realm... somewhere? tin or silver plated marine grade wire on the harness would be nice.... lay a stock harness out on a peice of plywood or coreplast with all its bends and twists, pin it in place, trace it out, lay the new wire....
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!

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