Intro:

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BowtieZ
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Joined: 12 Nov 2009 08:01
Location: Boise,ID

Intro:

Post by BowtieZ » 12 Nov 2009 08:25

Hello everyone,
I roaming over here from hybridZ forums looking for a nice rear suspension set up for my 280ZX. I heard you all have similar setups and I should look into the 510 because there is more "posted" info on them than there is on my S130. Thanks for havin'e aboard.
Jason
Workin' on it...

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Byron510
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Re: Intro:

Post by Byron510 » 12 Nov 2009 09:37

Hey Jason,

Welcome to the site.
The 510 rear suspension is very similar, and you'll likely find some help here.
As with all new board members, we ask that you fill in your location under your avatar - as we have members literally from every continent of the planet.
Again, welcome.
Byron
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because the opposite never works.

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okayfine
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Re: Intro:

Post by okayfine » 12 Nov 2009 09:58

BowtieZ wrote:I roaming over here from hybridZ forums looking for a nice rear suspension set up for my 280ZX.
Jason, what exactly are you looking for? By this I mean, what are you looking to upgrade and why, how will you be driving your car, power output, budget, stuff like that. There's everything from new shocks/coilovers to something like:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13248&p=136919#p136562
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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hang_510
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Re: Intro:

Post by hang_510 » 12 Nov 2009 11:32

BowtieZ wrote: Thanks for havin'e aboard.
welcome.

relax and take off that bowtie ;)
byron wrote:I'd be all over that like a fat kid on a smartie.
okayfine wrote:Sense doesn't always have everything to do with it, and I speak from experience.

BowtieZ
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Joined: 12 Nov 2009 08:01
Location: Boise,ID

Re: Intro:

Post by BowtieZ » 12 Nov 2009 15:28

Jason, what exactly are you looking for? By this I mean, what are you looking to upgrade and why, how will you be driving your car, power output, budget, stuff like that. There's everything from new shocks/coilovers to something like:
Yes this is a great link to get me started. Let me start with what I have. Then I tell you all where I want to go. My car is a '79 280ZX Coupe/l28ET. Mods: CAI, TokicoHp series kit( shocks,springs,struts), drilled/slotted rotors on all4 corners,semi metallic pads,all Poly bushings. I have a 350SBC waiting for install, but I want all of the basics covered before I throw 375HP into my 2600 pound car. I'm truly not interested in any other powerplant. At this point I'm commited to the V8.

Cons: Even with the afore mentioned upgrades my car has displayed some unique handling characteristics.
1: when cornering at high speeds it feels like the rear wants to roll out of wack long before I feel the tires give up grip, this doesnt feel like hangin it out so to speak.

1a: side note on Tires here. I'm running 60 series formozas not directional performance tires. I had some really bad tires on this car when I acquired it. The Formozas are an improvement. The reason I tell this is to explain that I know what weak sidewalls feel like in a decent corner...
I recently had it explained to me by the local"Z" guy..... That this is a design flaw of the S130s. Due to the angle of the rear trailing arms from the crossmember. His theory was that when down forces causes the expected response in the rear suspension the wheels want to come out of alignment resulting in an irrepairable flaw with the handling of my car. I Ain't buyin' it! Tell Paul Newman that this suspension is fatally flawed..

2: I may run the occasional local event but this car will predominantly do dual duty street/strip.
Workin' on it...

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okayfine
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Re: Intro:

Post by okayfine » 13 Nov 2009 07:20

Jason,

We don't typically deal with that sort of power, though one Dave Lum was running near that with a VG30DETT 510 and, aside from a fancy crossmember (http://datsun510.com/shop1/product_info ... 6e64fa9eab), stiff springs, and some sort of shock, stock rear trailing arms.

If you're looking at more than the occasional strip duty for your finished car, you might consider doing the work for a four-link live axle setup. It's been done to at least one 510 I know of, and will certainly get the power down regardless of what your SBC is putting out.

Do you know the spring rates for the Tokico HP kit? Has your alignment been reset after the lowering, especially at the rear? The trailing arm geometry gets funky when it's lowered and not corrected, you get additional negative camber but the killer is the additional toe out, which will make it an evil-handling car if you're pushing it.

That said, the 60-series tires aren't doing you any favors with regards to handling. They'll roll under a ZX with high(er) cornering loads, pretty much regardless. Do you have any local friends with lower profile wheels/tires that you could swap for an hour and give a test drive?

The angle of the trailing arms from the crossmember isn't the flaw, the flaw is the geometry change during articulation. Take a drag start - any squat at the rear raises the rear trailing arms and due to the geometry the rear tires have an increase in negative camber, reducing your contact patch (the main reason for the four-link suggestion). There is also lift-off oversteer that is created due to the way the suspension moves at the back, but this is beyond me to really explain to you.

You could probably help things by upping the spring rates, but it might result in a less-than-pleasant street ride. Of course, the addition of the SBC and all that power will require suspension upgrades anyway. Is there a weight difference between the L28 and SBC?

My suggestions, look at alignment, look at tires, research the four-link.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

BowtieZ
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Joined: 12 Nov 2009 08:01
Location: Boise,ID

Re: Intro:

Post by BowtieZ » 13 Nov 2009 08:58

Thanks for the input Fine. I believe the spring rates for the Tokico kit are 100 rear and 200 front. I'll make sure I did have the alignment redone at the local tire shop. As far as stiffening up the springs, I'll do that as a last resort since the tokico kit rides very rigid as it sits. I haven't purchased anything that will pull that toe out back in, such as the camber adjustment plates or the blocks some people put at the bottom of the shock/strut to take it out. I may go that route with a larger diameter swaybar and rear strut tower brace. As for the 350/L28 weight difference I believe I'll noly gain around 175 lbs. that should sit more to the center than the L28 did with a JTR V8 swap kit. Advertised that this swap kit sets almost @ 50:50.. We'll see heh. Anyone got any specific fixes for the Toe out. I am all ears, and BTW this site is great. Everyone seems to have their stuff together and I like the atmosphere, "Don't tell my Z cronies but kinda makes me want a 510, lol." :twisted: P.S. anyone in the Boise area got some tires I can swap for an hour....J/K. I dont have anyone around here, I'll just work out as much as I can then get into some better tire/rims at a later point.
Thanks again
Jason
Workin' on it...

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okayfine
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Re: Intro:

Post by okayfine » 13 Nov 2009 09:31

BowtieZ wrote:Thanks for the input Fine. I believe the spring rates for the Tokico kit are 100 rear and 200 front.
If that's the case, and IIRC ZX is coilover at the rear (and, hence, rear spring rate is rear wheel rate), then IMO the rate balance front-to-rear is way off. The rear, at least as relates to 510s, is very soft compared to the front. As is the car should understeer for America, and will likely feel like it's giving up before tires.
BowtieZ wrote: I'll make sure I did have the alignment redone at the local tire shop.
That does not inspire confidence. Two main things, they used stock ZX alignment settings which are not the most performance oriented, and if you did nothing to account for the lowering, they did not adjust the rear in any meaninful way to compensate for the lowering. I can point you to good street/track compromise alignment here:

http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/tech ... specs.html

But that's for a 510 and I don't know what a ZX likes to see.
BowtieZ wrote:As far as stiffening up the springs, I'll do that as a last resort since the tokico kit rides very rigid as it sits.
Not with 100 in/lb springs in the rear it isn't. Also, you will be adding significant weight to the chassis, you're going to want to uprate the suspension to deal with it.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

BowtieZ
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Location: Boise,ID

Re: Intro:

Post by BowtieZ » 13 Nov 2009 12:55

After some further research, I believe the Tokico kit#HPK255 rates @ 200 front and 175 rear with ALOT if the cars stock weight on the nose,that L28 is a long sucker.Do you think that these rates are still too soft? I know that the 350 at a minimum will cause me to change out my front springs and now I'm feelin like maybe the rears to. I appreciate your help and patience, there is just not alot out there for the Zx that I find to be reliable and I think I may want to start documenting all of my work and you guys' input for other Zx owners as we go. I'm going back to basics here, I'll find all I can on stock weight distribution and spring rates. Then maybe weigh the benifits of going full coil over instead of shooting in the dark with so-called pre-established kits. Thanks again,
Jason
Workin' on it...

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okayfine
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Re: Intro:

Post by okayfine » 13 Nov 2009 14:17

BowtieZ wrote:After some further research, I believe the Tokico kit#HPK255 rates @ 200 front and 175 rear with ALOT if the cars stock weight on the nose,that L28 is a long sucker.Do you think that these rates are still too soft?
Soft, yes, IMO, but not out of whack front/rear. FWIW, 510s with engine swaps tend to run at least 175 F/R, and many on this site run upwards of 250 F/R, and 510s weigh ~2200 pounds with swaps.
BowtieZ wrote:Then maybe weigh the benifits of going full coil over instead of shooting in the dark with so-called pre-established kits.
Coilover kits for the front just let you choose your own spring rate and are able to adjust for height. You could do the same with some donor springs of approriate length/rate and math, or find the spring rate you want and modify your struts to have adjustable lower spring perches.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

BowtieZ
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Location: Boise,ID

Re: Intro:

Post by BowtieZ » 13 Nov 2009 15:50

I get it. So why not fab up a rear coil over set up with toe/camber adjustability? That seems like it would put the trailing arm issue to bed in my application.
Thanks ,
Jason
Workin' on it...

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okayfine
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Re: Intro:

Post by okayfine » 13 Nov 2009 16:02

ZX essentially has a coilover rear, does it not?

In any case, the toe and camber issues are decided at the pivots of the rear crossmember. The shock location doesn't have an impact on geometry.
Because when you spend a silly amount of money on a silly, trivial thing that will help you not one jot, you are demonstrating that you have a soul and a heart and that you are the sort of person who has no time for Which? magazine. – Jeremy Clarkson

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dislexicdime
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Re: Intro:

Post by dislexicdime » 13 Nov 2009 17:25

i wonder how a set of byron's brackets would work on his zx
L series only have one header!

i need another garage mine is full of part's

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rnorrish
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Re: Intro:

Post by rnorrish » 13 Nov 2009 20:28

BowtieZ wrote:I get it. So why not fab up a rear coil over set up with toe/camber adjustability? That seems like it would put the trailing arm issue to bed in my application.
Thanks ,
Jason
The ZX only has a coil spring over shock with the rear trailing arm. Don't confuse this with the earlier Z's and their strut and lower control arm. These have the spindle on the strut, the ZX has a hub and axle in the arm.
Therefore, the strut on a Z dictates alignment, the arm does on a ZX.

There are a couple sets of different brackets/kits made for a 510 that should work on a ZX. The angle of the arms are the same (people have put ZX arm in a 510 crossmember...), etc. They may need a little modding to fit the crossmember, but they make the arms very easy to align. they are also a little more precise than just cutting slots into the ears.

Byron510 here on the site makes a set. They are laser cut parts and include all the hardware. MadDat or DatSport in Australia make some too.
richard norrish
'68 'goon resto / '71 ice racer / '72 'goon project / '70 4-door rust pile / '67 520 project
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Byron510
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Re: Intro:

Post by Byron510 » 13 Nov 2009 22:18

BowtieZ wrote:I get it. So why not fab up a rear coil over set up with toe/camber adjustability? That seems like it would put the trailing arm issue to bed in my application.
Thanks , Jason
dislexicdime wrote:i wonder how a set of byron's brackets would work on his zx
As I was reading through this post, I was wondering the same thing.
If you can get a measurement of the rear LCA bushing width, I can at least math this. I know it can work, but I don’t know what modifications you’ll need to do to the X member to make it fit. The ZX rear X member is a lower profile then the PL510. I have a ZX X member in my storage shed, I’ll have to dig it out and take a look see. It may work for you.

Byron
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because the opposite never works.

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