running on vapor?

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RMS
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running on vapor?

Postby RMS » 29 Jun 2015 16:37

watched this guy today run his 3000 watt 4stroke gas generator off fumes from a paint can sitting in the sun. :shock:

now you've all seen vids on utube with guys claiming to have over unity devices and carbs that will give you over a 100 miles per gallon. is any of this true ?

well after seeing this genny pound away all day on a liter of gas Im a skeptical believer.

his set up was very simple and I may have to give it a try.

IT was a standard china made genny with a carb. he splashed a bit of gas into the tank to get it stated. then he poured about a 1L of gas into a paint can with two holes in the lid and a bit of hose. one small hose went below the surface of the gas almost to the bottom of the paint can and the other a larger hose was at the top of the can (like a hooka or bong) then the large hose was fed to the air cleaner on the genny.
the bit of gas in the carb was used up and it smoothed out as it ran on vapor. there was no noticeable exhaust fumes and it idled up and down like normal when under load.

how and why does this work ?
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bertvorgon
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Re: running on vapor?

Postby bertvorgon » 29 Jun 2015 17:02

I'm thinking, and of course I would have no idea what a bong or hooka would be, that if the outside temperature is hot enough, the gas in that can will start to vaporize, as the inside temp will be at the vapour point of the fuel. Within reason, that vapour fed into the carb is just a rich air mixture, loaded with fuel particles The line to the bottom of the can would just be a pressure equalizing line, so atmospheric pressure will push the fuel vapour out the feed line. Basically it has just eliminated the jet..?

Wait,,I hear a knock on my door...gulp...it's the oil Cartel...I know nothing.....the guys in Richmond...don't hit me....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby 510rob » 29 Jun 2015 17:50

I'd love to see something like this work, but from what I remember, the difficulty with ultra-lean mixtures is typically in lighting the mixture...

Have a good look at Honda's CVCC concept. It lit a charge inside a small (and diesel-like) pre-combustion chamber holding a small but rich mixture, then presented that [burning fire-ball of high tech goodness] into the main chamber, which held a very lean mixture. Back in the day, CVCC engines were able to pass emissions without needing a catalytic converter.

For kicks, also search for Honda 1973 CVCC Impala - there's a funny story attached to it...

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby gooned » 29 Jun 2015 17:54

bertvorgon wrote:
Wait,,I hear a knock on my door...gulp...it's the oil Cartel...I know nothing.....the guys in Richmond...don't hit me....


Damn I really liked this site too, hope we find each other after "the Man" shuts 'er down :?

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby RMS » 29 Jun 2015 19:52

gooned wrote:
bertvorgon wrote:
Wait,,I hear a knock on my door...gulp...it's the oil Cartel...I know nothing.....the guys in Richmond...don't hit me....


Damn I really liked this site too, hope we find each other after "the Man" shuts 'er down :?


Given up just like that :roll: ..............I heard They offer Cash first to shut ya up. then if you don't They hit you with a death ray.....make it look like a heart attack 8)
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby bertvorgon » 29 Jun 2015 20:25

Richmond..Virginia, my friend..after all, it's the Internet..that should keep them busy for a month or so....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby Byron510 » 29 Jun 2015 22:25

510rob wrote:I'd love to see something like this work, but from what I remember, the difficulty with ultra-lean mixtures is typically in lighting the mixture...

Have a good look at Honda's CVCC concept. It lit a charge inside a small (and diesel-like) pre-combustion chamber holding a small but rich mixture, then presented that [burning fire-ball of high tech goodness] into the main chamber, which held a very lean mixture. Back in the day, CVCC engines were able to pass emissions without needing a catalytic converter.

For kicks, also search for Honda 1973 CVCC Impala - there's a funny story attached to it...


All of the big natural gas engines that we turbocharge work in the same way - a pre cup chamber with a multitude of holes pointing downward that send "jets" into the periphery of the cylinder to light off the lean burn mixture. There might be 20-40 holes of maybe 1/4" - 5/15" in diameter around the top of the combustion chamber. Now these are on 2-6 liter/cylinder applications in 12-24 cylinder configurations. I thought it was a neat application on these big engines.
However I was schooled myself when I dropped by Paul S.'s place in Vancouver a few years ago. He had his Renault Gordini R8 engine apart, and low and behold - what did I see - a pre cup head design with about 8 holes designed just like the gas engines I have seen. He says it reduced his timing setting to 0-4 degrees advanced because of the rapid burn of the cylinder combustion design. How does this wondrous 60's design work - you might add? Well, it's the only production 4 cylinder engine I've ever been for a ride in that turned 8000 RPM... stock.. without effort!

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby Byron510 » 29 Jun 2015 22:41

Damn Rob - that Impala CVCC story is funny as hell!

I read the Hemming’s and Jolopnik versions, but either way you cut it - that's fricking hilarious!

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby RMS » 14 Jul 2015 14:48

510rob wrote:I'd love to see something like this work, but from what I remember, the difficulty with ultra-lean mixtures is typically in lighting the mixture...



the guy was running his genny yesterday on the bubbler. I was surprised to see that the mixture was not lean and the vapor needed to be leaned to make the genny smooth. he has a ball valve on the line coming out of the bubbler and it was almost closed allowing only a small amount of vapor to enter the air box.

I asked him if such a setup on a car would work. he said he hooked up 3 bubblers in series and drove his civic to Whistler and back on a liter of gas :shock: he said the biggest problem he had was icing of the bubblers like when a propane tank is almost empty...... all I could think was : you had three paint cans filled with vapor and an inch of gas sitting on back seat with no spark arrestor :shock:

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby bertvorgon » 14 Jul 2015 16:28

That picture looks like when my brother soaked the corn husk pile with gasoline, then took too long to throw the match on.....
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

1973 2Door Slalom/hill climb/road race / canyon carver /Giant Killer 510
1968 Vintage 3HP Mini Bike
1971 Vintage 13' BOLER trailer

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby datzenmike » 14 Jul 2015 21:02

RMS wrote:
I asked him if such a setup on a car would work. he said he hooked up 3 bubblers in series and drove his civic to Whistler and back on a liter of gas :shock: he said the biggest problem he had was icing of the bubblers like when a propane tank is almost empty...... all I could think was : you had three paint cans filled with vapor and an inch of gas sitting on back seat with no spark arrestor :shock:



That's 120km or 90 miles on a liter of gas?????... so I'm going to have to say BULLSHIT! 400plus MPG? A liter of gas contains barely 30,000 BTUs and gas engines are only about 30% efficient so let's say 50% here. That's whistler on 15,000 BTUs up hill in a civic???? Cannot be done for less than two gallons maybe 1 1/2 gallons.

If he said whistler on a gallon I would say bullshit.
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Re: running on vapor?

Postby RMS » 15 Jul 2015 09:03

my bad it was not a civic it was a Prias so I guess most of the trip was on batteries. hey even two gallons to whistler would be nice. the 2.4L z in 6inches of rust will just make it to Pemberton and back(348k) on a tank. any gains in mileage would be welcome. now i don't see power being made on vapor but it would be nice to say replace the idle circuit on the weber with a vapor bubbler feed to the intake.
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Re: running on vapor?

Postby Byron510 » 15 Jul 2015 15:04

Robyn, I'm having a hard time with this "technology" based on that fact that fuel is fuel and an internal combustion engine cannot run on air alone. A gasoline mixture of 14-18:1 is required to properly burn fuel in a standard engine. Anything leaner will not make power, and much leaner than this for any period of time and it just won't run. I realize that lean burn technology has been the focus in automotive circles for 40 years (CVCC mentioned earlier). However fuel is fuel and this ratio of fuel to air is a set one - whether you are boiling fuel, or mixing it through emulsion to combine the fuel with air or injecting it under pressure - the result is the same, there has to be a certain air/fuel ratio to make it run.

I have read about engine designs in the 70’s that utilized the heat of the exhaust to literally super heat the fuel in preparation for combustion, which did raise overall efficiency to the mid 40% range which is a huge step. Obviously there are issues with this design which did not make a production version very practical, hence it was just an engineering exercise. But there were not the kind of efficiency gains you are describing here.
Your standard engines today are not exactly wasting fuel – unburned out the tail pipe. By boiling fuel, you are not getting any more of it for free, so I am having a hard time with this whole concept. Not hatin’ - just not understanding where the "extra" fuel or miraculous efficiency is coming from. We need more info….

If you or someone else can add to this, I'd love to hear it.

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Re: running on vapor?

Postby RMS » 15 Jul 2015 15:51

I to do not get it . however I did see that genny pound away for 7hrs on a 1 gallon paint can with 4 inches of gas in the bottom. the thing that I could not believe as I stood there watching this genny was how rich and stumbily it was running at startup until he choked down the flow of vapor from the paint can.
now I would like to pull the head and see how melted the piston is.....hey I have a gas analyzer. I will try up to hook it up and get a reading.

also my bad x2 he does not have a Prias he has a volt and a civic..... and it was the civic he took to whistler.

maybe the boys from the "plant" can come by during lunch and see it in action?
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Re: running on vapor?

Postby RMS » 16 Jul 2015 15:32

have any of you guys tried or seen a hydrogen bubbler on a gas pot ?Image
two_68_510s wrote:I guess our donkeys are quicker then your sled dogs!


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